For those of you who support Obama...

[migirl]

I don't know if this necessarily belongs in the Debate section, but because it pertains to politics I'll post it here.

I'm genuinely curious about those of you who support Obama, specifically those of you who support him and are out of the training phase. Obama's proposed tax plan calls for increasing the tax rate (to 55%, I believe?) on those making $250k/year and more. This is almost a deal-breaker for DH to vote for Obama. He feels like he's worked pretty damned hard for the big attending paycheck, and he's pissed off that by the time he finally finishes training and gets the big paycheck ... Obama is calling for over half of it to be eaten up by taxes.

Thoughts?

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

55%? Isn't the current highest rate 39%? I can't remember the cut-off for the 39% but I think it is higher than $250k. I know he has also talked about raising the capital gains rate again and I think his logic behind that is somewhat faulty.

Apologies in advance for a slight hijack -- I wish one of the two candidates would address the AMT but since that is certain political suicide, I don't see it getting fixed anytime soon.

[Momo]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

55%? Isn't the current highest rate 39%? I can't remember the cut-off for the 39% but I think it is higher than $250k. I know he has also talked about raising the capital gains rate again and I think his logic behind that is somewhat faulty.

Apologies in advance for a slight hijack -- I wish one of the two candidates would address the AMT but since that is certain political suicide, I don't see it getting fixed anytime soon.

I thought it was $750,000...I guess we have some homewrok to do.
BTW we don't vote based on taxes...there's way more than our personal $$ at stake.

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

That is what I'm saying Suz -- I think it is *higher* than $250k and $750k sounds closer to what I thought I heard. That would be a huge change to not only raise the highest rate to 55% but to also lower the threshold of the highest bracket from 750k to 250k.

[planet]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

I *just* heard the figure of $250K on NPR.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080612/pl_ ... s_obama_dc
By Steve Holland
Thu Jun 12, 4:22 PM ET



KAUKAUNA, Wisconsin (Reuters) - Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama on Thursday accused Republican John McCain of mischaracterizing his tax plan and said most Americans would not see taxes go up.

Obama, an Illinois senator, has drawn heavy fire from rival Arizona Sen. McCain this week on the issue of taxes, with the Republican repeatedly accusing Obama of seeking the largest increase since World War II.

"It's just not true," Obama said at a town hall meeting in rainy Wisconsin, telling a crowd inside a high school gymnasium that Republicans have wrongly subjected him to charges of being a "tax-and-spend liberal."

Obama, visiting a Midwestern state likely to be a battleground in the race to the November presidential election, is enjoying a modest bump in public opinion polls in the days since dispatching rival Hillary Clinton from the Democratic nominating contest.

A poll by NBC and the Wall Street Journal put him ahead of McCain by 47 percent to 41 percent among registered voters.

Obama says he would raise taxes on Americans making $250,000 a year or more and raise the capital gains tax for those in higher income brackets while exempting small investors. He would use the money to pay for a middle-class tax cut of $1,000 a year.

McCain and other Republican leaders argue that any tax increase at a time the U.S. economy is struggling could be devastating.

Obama's campaign pointed to a study by the Tax Policy Center that said his plan would offer middle-class families three times the tax relief they would receive under McCain's plan.

The report said McCain would give tax cuts to the rich: one-quarter of the benefits in McCain's plan go to households making over $2.8 million annually.

'BOTH OF US FAVOR TAX CUTS'

"Both John McCain and I favor tax cuts," Obama said. "No matter what he says, both of us favor tax cuts. The difference is that Senator McCain wants to continue the Bush tax code that rewards wealth and I want to reform our tax code so it rewards work."

Obama called McCain's plan to continue President George W. Bush's across-the-board tax cuts, and add corporate tax reductions, fiscally irresponsible.

"You know, I often say that John McCain is running to serve out George Bush's third term, but that's not fair to George Bush, because the fact is Sen. McCain is now calling for this new round of tax relief that is twice as expensive as the Bush plan and three times as regressive," Obama said.

The McCain campaign said Obama was quoting selectively from the Tax Policy report, saying it also concluded that under Obama's plan 10 million seniors with incomes under $250,000 would pay higher capital gains taxes on stock profits.

"In fact, Barack Obama would raise taxes for families making under $250,000 per year about 10 million times over -- according to the very same report he cited," said McCain economic adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin.

Obama also took aim at a McCain statement on Wednesday in which he appeared to play down a timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq. McCain said the most important factor was keeping U.S. casualties low and reiterated that U.S. troops for decades have played peace-keeping roles around the world.

The notion of leaving U.S. troops in Iraq "in perpetuity" ignored the burden placed on troops and their families from repeated tours of duty and is also costly to the U.S. economy, Obama said.

(Editing by David Wiessler and Todd Eastham)

(To read more about the U.S. political campaign, visit Reuters "Tales from the Trail: 2008" online at http://blogs.reuters.com/trail08/)

[SuzySunshine]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

This really intrigued me b/c DH is supporting Obama right now I can't imagine him doing that if those numbers are right. So I found this...
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...JouHAD91BRT804

A few excerpts:

Obama, the first-term Illinois senator, wasn't in the Senate when they first passed, but he's willing to go along with permanently extending them except for their chief beneficiaries, the rich. Those who make more than $250,000 a year would see their taxes increase; Bush's tax cuts for them would be rolled back. Obama would extend and index the current AMT patch.
In the vein of taxing the rich more, Obama also supports making some higher wage-earners pay Social Security taxes on more of their income. He has called for higher payroll taxes on wage-earners making more than $250,000 annually, a step that would affect the wealthiest 3 percent of Americans.
The 6.2 percent payroll tax is now applied to all wages up to $102,000 a year, which covers the entire amount for most Americans. Under Obama's plan, the tax would not apply to wages between that amount and $250,000. But Obama has said all annual salaries above the quarter-million-dollar amount would be taxed under his plan.

Both want to slice the estate tax, McCain more so than Obama.
The estate tax is phasing out and is completely eliminated for 2010, but it snaps back to 2001 levels — a 55 percent top rate with the first $675,000 exempt — at the end of that year. McCain wants a 15 percent rate, and a $5 million exemption, while Obama advocates a 45 percent rate and a $3.5 million exemption.
Overall, the Tax Policy Center said people with very high incomes would benefit the most under McCain's proposal, while low- and middle-income taxpayers would see larger tax breaks under Obama's plan and wealthy taxpayers would see their taxes increase.

So the 55% and the $675,000 is part of the estate tax (i.e. inheritance) not income. But he is taxing those above $250K though it doesn't say how much.

[SuzySunshine]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

I also found this, it explains it in english...
http://michaelmedved.townhall.com/bl...#commentAnchor

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Assuming this information on wikipedia is correct.... I guess I got the old highest rate of 39% mixed up with what it is now. I also thought the threshold was higher.

The table is a mess, it is much easier to see here (scroll down):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax ... _tax_rates

An individual pays tax at a given bracket only for each dollar within that bracket's range. For example, a single taxpayer who earned $10,000 in 2007 would be taxed 10% of each dollar earned from the 1st dollar to the 7,825th dollar (10% × $7,825 = $782.50), then 15% of each dollar earned from the 7,826th dollar to the 10,000th dollar (15% × $2,175 = $326.25), for a total of $1,108.75. Notice this amount ($1,108.75) is lower than if the individual had been taxed at 15% on the full $10,000 (for a tax of $1,500). This is because the individual's marginal rate (the percentage tax on the last dollar earned, here 15%) has no effect on the income taxed at a lower bracket (here the first $7,825 of income taxed at 10%). This ensures that every rise in a person's pre-tax salary results in an increase of their after-tax salary, contrary to the popular misconception that being bumped into a higher tax bracket reduces after-tax income.

Claiming deductions may reduce an individual's tax liability by a rate equal to the marginal tax rate of their particular tax bracket, with a corresponding reduction in returns as the individual crosses in to a lower tax bracket. For example, if an individual is able to increase the amount of their deduction by $1000 with a last-minute donation to a charitable organization, and the individual's adjusted gross income is $500 in to the 25% marginal tax bracket, the donation will reduce the tax liability of the individual by ($500 × 25%) + ($500 × 15%) = $200.

[edit] Year 2008 income brackets and tax rates
Marginal Tax Rate Single Married Filing Jointly or Qualified Widow(er) Married Filing Separately Head of Household
10% $0 – $8,025 $0 – $16,050 $0 – $8,025 $0 – $11,450
15% $8,026 – $32,550 $16,051 – $65,100 $8,026 – $32,550 $11,451 – $43,650
25% $32,551 – $78,850 $65,101 – $131,450 $32,551 – $65,725 $43,651 – $112,650
28% $78,851 – $164,550 $131,451 – $200,300 $65,726 – $100,150 $112,651 – $182,400
33% $164,551 – $357,700 $200,301 – $357,700 $100,151 – $178,850 $182,401 – $357,700
35% $357,701+ $357,701+ $178,851+ $357,701+

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

My gravest concerns are what he wants to do to corporation tax law. These phoney-baloney "windfall" taxes being proposed for oil & gas companies (by both the GOP and the Dems, by the way--in a fairly pathetic and obvious pandering to the most base frustration of people...in complete disregard of common sense and basic laws of the market) and higher corporate tax rates are very bad news for anyone with a 401(k). Who, exactly, do they think own publicly traded stock? For the most part...pension plans and 401(k)s. I don't want corporations paying more taxes. I and millions of others are the OWNERS of those companies. If the corporations pay more taxes, I am paying more taxes. DUH!

Obama is all about classic wealth redistribution. He just says it is a really attractive, smooth, compassionate way. If you believe that you will benefit from such redistribution (that is, you have permanent, insurmountable limitations on self-improvement of your life circumstances in terms of education and earning potential), then vote for him. Most people in the free market capitalistic system don't view their circumstances this way. Most people want to be 401(k) owners, high income earners, and don't want a society incentivized through its tax policy against such upward advancement.

But I know a ton of people who are completely against artificially created governmental systems of wealth redistribution but who also say things like, "I'm going to vote for Obama because it is just going to be great to have our first African American president!" I don't get that at all. It's more important that the guy is African American than has the right ideas for the country? What if Obama was running against a caucasian female Republican? How on earth would you decide which PC concern should trump your actual beliefs?

I think it is interesting that it is only my caucasian acquaintances who say stupid crap like this. It's like some kind of socially induced white guilt makes them feel compelled to do this. It is such a condescending reason to vote for anyone. My African American friends who are voting for Obama aren't voting for him because he's black (although they like that)...they are voting for him because they AGREE with his policies. Now that's why you should vote for him!! (I may find my African American friends' adoption of these positions kind of odd, because their life circumstances wouldn't suggest that they would benefit from wealth redistribution, but that's not relevant. At least they are being intellectually consistent--they believe in the societal goals of wealth redistribution and vote accordingly. They aren't voting for the guy just because he's African American, even though they are really excited about being able to finally vote for someone who is both African American and an advocate for their political ideals. There's no way they would vote for the Republican if it were an African American Republican running for Pres against a caucasian Dem.)

[fluffhead]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Well put, Abigail.
The whole ethanol flip-flop thing is concerning as well. It's like he's all for subsidies when he thought that was the popular approach, and as public opinion turned against the idiotic idea of ethanol as a clean energy source, suddenly he's against it too.
It's hard to tell where he really stands on issues, and where the issues are just what his marketers told him will make him most palateable. So yeah, duh, taxing the rich and reinstating estate taxes will make him popular with low wage earners. But it's not a fair nor smart policy, and not one which leads to economic self reliance. And just where does this mortgage bailout money come from? More national debt? Why not just reelect another bush for another 8 years? Jeb, are you there?

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

So yeah, duh, taxing the rich and reinstating estate taxes will make him popular with low wage earners. But it's not a fair nor smart policy, and not one which leads to economic self reliance. And just where does this mortgage bailout money come from? More national debt? Why not just reelect another bush for another 8 years? Jeb, are you there?

Amen, fluff. The mortgage bail-out thing just... .

No Teacher Left Sane -- I love it.

(Full disclosure: I did vote for BHO in the primary with some waffling between candidates but ultimately felt that HRC had to much baggage from her hubby among other things. )

[PrincessFiona]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

The tax thing is probably what holds me back from supporting Obama right now. I felt differently about this issue before we were finished with training, but now...we pay sooooo much money in taxes. Not only do we get stuck with federal taxes and social security, but...we also pay state/local taxes in MN AND get hit with the alternative minimum tax every year. It stinks...STINKS.

What bothers me the most is that we pay a higher percentage of our income in taxes. I wouldn't mind if across the board everyone paid say....20% taxes...by default, we would pay more because we earn more. We don't qualify for any programs that our taxes fund, don't have more of a right to use the roads, get police protection, have our vote count twice (not that it should) etc...but we pay more in terms of percentage. We paid out the behind for Andrew and Amanda's schools this year, but if we had earned less money, we would have been able to go for free or a reduced amount.

Where is the incentive to work hard and earn more?

I liked the fact that Clinton was not planning on raising the limit on social security....I don't want it raised.

The extra money that we get after June of each year is what enables us to contribute to the economy. It allows us to install new floors, take trips, buy new furniture etc. Without that boost, we would not really spend at all.

At some point people's hard work has to be rewarded without other people thinking that because they earn less, they are entitled to put their hands in the pockets of other people.

I believe Kelly said "holy crap" when I told her that. "You are turning into a repulican". No....but I can't support the dems at this current time.

[SuzySunshine]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

I really have an issue with the ethanol thing, I didn't realize his stance on it. Of course I haven't spent a lot of time researching him or McCain at this point.

But the more I learn about ethanol the less I believe it is the right answer for new energy.

As for the taxes, I agree that a flat rate makes SO much more sense. You'd still pay more if you made more but I agree with whoever said where is the motivation to work hard? Why get master degrees, law degrees or medical degrees if you end up with tons more debt then your undergrad classmates and they could possibly have a better lifestyle b/c they're not paying as much in taxes. One of the guys broke it out well on that 2nd article I posted.

55% You've got to be kidding me!

ETA: Someone explain to me why the government benefits from my (or my husband's) hard work? :anyolne:

[Sheherezade]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

I'd love a flat tax, too. *sigh* Ain't going to happen, though.

We still support Obama even though our taxes will be raised. My understanding of the increase was that Obama's plan would 1) raise highest tax rate to Clinton era high by rolling back all tax cuts for 250K and above households and 2) possibly take SS tax out of all income made or raise the cap on SS to help solidify that program. I'm cool with that. (So is DH.) I guess we are communists at heart. We bought a house that was 3X less than what we were qualified for and we firmly believe in living below your means. Hence, we have the income to give the government without making us change our lifestyle. I suppose that makes it easier to swallow? I don't think people were suffering greatly during the 90s from tax rates. Now, if it was 55%...that would be very high. That's not the income tax proposed under Obama's plan. Obviously, these plans have to be passed by Congress as well, so we'll have to see what ultimately happens.

As for why I'm OK with tax hikes, I guess I am so sick of the world that the "free market" has brought us. When I take my kids to the Progressive Field to see a baseball game and they talk about the "Frito Lay" Pitch of the Day and the bobble heads brought to you by Giant Eagle....blah, blah, blah.... I just feel sick. If I could go back and pay high city taxes to avoid having a stadium "sponsered" by a corporation, I would. I don't want a world in which my kids are viewed only as "consumers" and homes are just "investments" or "assets". I'd rather they be citizens with a higher tax load and a bigger reason to participate and vote. That's just my 2 cents....of course....but I'm very tired of the world we live in and the money grubbing. All this keeping up with the jones and 4000 sq foot homes. Bleh. I hate that this is the world my kids have always known. The corporate names attached to every thing and every project seem almost comical to me. Why can't our governments pick up the tab for a change? Why can't we vote on how the money is used together instead of filtering everything through the market via purchases? I want to stop focusing on buying stuff. So....despite making over 250 K.....DH and I are behind Obama. I honestly think the SS tax will be worse for us than the income tax hike - but something has to be done about SS before the boomers start retiring en masse.

I'm more concerned about the health care plans. So many pols seem to be total idiots about health care and how it works.

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

I'm more concerned about the health care plans. So many pols seem to be total idiots about health care and how it works.

ITA, this is very concerning.