For those of you who support Obama...

[Sheherezade]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Our next door neighbor in Boston was a professional lobbyist. One of the issues he wrote legislation for was health care reform. He worked for Edwards in his first presidential run; I'm not sure whether he did in the follow up this year. Anyhoo....this guy was very bright, but he just didn't get the basics of how health care worked. You know how everyone thinks that a resident is a "real" doctor bringing in the big bucks? That was how every detail of health care played out in his view. He had some skewed stereotype/publicly accepted view of how things worked - and the reality was far off. He was always and forever trying to understand how DH and his fellowship experience made sense in his view of the health care world. :huh: It frightens me that someone with views like this could be writing legislation proposals for a major candidate for president...who claims that healthcare is one of his tiptop priorities. Maybe you'd want to talk to some healthcare people, you think??? I am afraid that many view the helathcare system as corrupt and that doctors can't make better plans because they are "part of the problem". As a result of this thinking, they are cut out of the planning. Scary. I'm so glad Edwards is out of the race. Honestly, my experience talking with our neighbor over three years about Edwards policies...and how far off they were from grasping reality.....it shook me up. Because this was a smart man - just dumb about the policy he was creating. I like to think smart people know their own limits and ask for help from those that know better. :huh: I'm clearly delusional.

[SuzySunshine]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

ETA: Someone explain to me why the government benefits from my (or my husband's) hard work? :anyolne:

Maybe because you drive on its streets and walk in its parks? Or maybe because you use its system to send letters, or fly in planes that don't crash into each other because of its controllers? Maybe because you attended its schools, or you buy imported products that land here safely because of its efforts?

Or maybe, just maybe, the success we all credit solely to ourselves has been aided in some small way by the fact that we live in a safe and stable environment that makes our pursuits possible every day. And maybe, just maybe, our government (and the taxes we pay into it) have something to do with that.

Just a thought.

So because my husband works insane hours at a job he loves and makes more then $250K (or will) we have to pay for the free loaders in this country? I get that there are great parts of our government that everyone should help pay for. What I don't think we should have to pay for just because we make more money are all of the FREE programs for the people that won't get off of their ass and get a job or an education. I put myself through BOTH of my degrees, I have school loans, my parents couldn't afford to send me or either of my sisters to school yet we still went.

I have no problem paying taxes, taxes that are reasonable. More then HALF of an income, anyone's income, is ridiculous!

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Again, ITA with you Angie. One would think that people knowledgeable about health care would be consulting on massive policy changes. I worked in state government health care for a while and between that and working in HR/benefits as well, the lack of understanding about how health care works is appalling. I don't expect people to know every detail but for such a large expense and issue near and dear, it is sad. FWIW, I think there are people out there with great understanding of how it works, ways to improve, etc -- I've worked for them. Somehow they aren't getting lined up with the right people all of the time.

As a small example, DH had a patient who was really ticked off that her health insurance didn't cover botox. She was upset because she "pays so much every month." You've got to be f'ing kidding me.

[Sheherezade]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

The tax rate in many industrialized Western European countries is above the U.S. rate. :huh: I don't think the rate is expected to be above fifty percent. I think the initial post quoted that figure in error. Didn't someone earlier in this thread state that the 55% was related to the estate tax? I'm not sure if that will be a new policy - or just leaving the estate tax in place. I believe the tax rate will return to something like 42%. I think the proposal is to roll back the tax cuts on people making over 250 K that went in to effect over the last eight years -- and that expire in 2010. So....not fifty percent. We are currently paying 40% in this household; 42% is not a monumental change.

As for why anyone should pay taxes to support freeloaders, if you don't want to do that...then let's work on changing those programs. Right now, I don't want to pay taxes to support a war I disagree with. Still, I don't get to lower taxes because I disagree with our military strategies. Do I? I get that some people disagree with social programs and welfare state ideas. I don't see that this is directly related to taxes. Right now, I think most of our tax moola is going to defense and financing the national debt. Both of those expenses are issues for me. I'd like to see them addressed....and then you can lower my taxes.

ETA: ITA with you Nellie. Let's hope that either McCain or Obama makes a good choice about advisors!!

Also: Here's info on tax rates around the globe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

I thought it was an interesting list. Taxes lowest in Russia and Saudi Arabia and such..... obviously, lots comes in to play with this. Just data to peruse.

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

I think it also bears mentioning that the rate is a marginal rate and what you are paying for the dollar range of that bracket. (For income tax, anyway).

I'm going to go back to the person I was discussing this with and figure out why I thought the threshold was so high. Not because we make over $750k but because I am curious.

[SuzySunshine]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

These discussions are what the elections are supposed to bring out. There are several independent groups that dig through the legal speak of these policies, I'll go see if I can find one that gives the truth on Obama's tax plan...

As for the healthcare plans, I agree the people who write the plans/bills usually have no idea how healthcare really works. I haven't looked at McCain or Obama's other plans.

[Sheherezade]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Awww, Nellie. Now you are going to make me go back to your earlier post and try to figure out all that complicated math stuff? I skimmed that. Looked complicated.

[Meenah]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Can I just cut and paste Angie's posts? She expresses my thoughts more eloquently than I can!

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

That table did not post well, Angie. Skip it. I just think it is misleading when a 39% rate gets thrown around because it isn't 39% of everything -- not to minimize someone's right to thinking that is too high. So...I think that one's marginal tax rate is usually higher than their average tax rate and if there was a flat tax the marginal and average rates would be the same. I think. But please don't take my word for it.

There are so many different ways of looking at this -- what if you lump in your state, payroll, property tax, capital gains (if applicable), etc your rate is going to be a lot higher. Then deductions can vary so much too and there is all sorts of sneaky stuff with that -- I just found out that there is some sort of limit on itemized deductions equivalent to 3% of AGI over $175k or something (but don't take my word for that because I got the highest tax bracket stuff all screwed up). IMO, that is additional tax.

[poky]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Can I just cut and paste Angie's posts? She expresses my thoughts more eloquently than I can!

[SuzySunshine]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

So I found this, its long and I didn't read the whole thing but the table on page 24 gives some detail and I don't see anything that says 55%.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/Uploa...teTaxPlans.pdf

ETA: And here's a blog written by the same nonpartisan group which breaks it down a little. http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/bl...0/3754964.html

[spotty_dog]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Here's how the San Francisco Chronicle stated the Obama tax proposal:

If Obama imposes, as he has suggested, higher Social Security payroll taxes on top income earners, they could see an effective tax rate of more than 55 percent of their income, not counting state income taxes, the Tax Policy Center analysis showed.

Here's a report from the Tax Policy Center named above, showing the change in tax liability under McCain or Obama for representative non-elderly married couples:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/ ... DocID=1840

I agree with Julia that it's our government that makes the US such a great place to live, learn, and be hard-working wage-earners in the top 5% of US incomes. And I agree with Angie that if this is the way to keep our government programs and Social Security from collapsing, I'm OK with paying our part. I'm sure it'll sting when the time comes to write that check, but I don't think it'll prevent us from putting food on the table, either.

[Sheherezade]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Ah! So as Nellie suggested, they are rolling all the taxes together to get a "total" rate? I hate when they confuse me like that!

I read up on the estate tax issue as well. It seems that the tax changes to the estate tax made under Bush are also due to expire in 2010. They would return to the 2001 level of 55% at that time unless a new proposal is passed. Obama has suggested 45%, McCain 15%. I think it is interesting that all these proposals have to do with keeping or reversing the changes made under Bush. These are not "new" tax rates, just reversals of the cuts that have been made recently. Also, FYI, McCain voted against all the Bush cuts on both occasions but now wants the cuts to become permanent. :huh: I do like McCain - I've always thought he had integrity and thought for himself. However, his "change of heart" on so many issues during this election cycle is wearing on me. I believe only McCain has suggested getting rid of the AMT...but he changed his mind on that and removed it from his website. I don't know if it is back in his proposal now or not. I think the AMT is horrible, but I think the government is counting on that money so they don't want to address it. I think they will have to address it in the coming years because so many will be caught in it.

Thanks for the love, Luanne and poky! I've obviously been watching too many West Wing reruns lately!

[Phoebe]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Isn't there a place where they give you the bottomline on all this? If joe schmoe makes x amount of $, then here is your tax rate.... I need the platforms for dummies brochure. Just call me lazy. I really don't enjoy surfing through all this stuff, but I honestly keep changing my mind about who to vote for because I don't like either candidate. I am also not a party voter.

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

I think the AMT is horrible, but I think the government is counting on that money so they don't want to address it.

ITA and every year that it continues is going to make it harder to get rid of because it brings in more money. One of the links from Cheri says that both would patch it in some way (sounds like differently between the two of them).

I do like McCain - I've always thought he had integrity and thought for himself. However, his "change of heart" on so many issues during this election cycle is wearing on me.

Also agree.

Bah humbug, a long road to November.