ok, you asked for it... :)

(BTW, atheism can count as a spiritual belief, if it strongly affects your political views.)

Trying to redirect the hijack that I started on veepstakes... hopefully without setting myself up for mass stoning from both sides.

Here's my dilemma when choosing a political party:
The Republican side stereotypically has the "conservative Christians," while the Democratic party has... unspiritual people??? So I would expect that Republicans would answer my poll by saying that their beliefs strongly affect their political views, and Democrats would say not so much.

My beliefs (NOT my upbringing) strongly affect my political views. But that's exactly what is making it so difficult to choose a party. What I find is that some of the views of the Republican party don't coincide as well with my beliefs. For example, I can't understand the apparent resistance to taking care of the environment - isn't that one of the first mandates in Genesis? And I also don't understand why many of the economic agendas seem to favor the rich instead of helping the poor.

I have SO much to learn when it comes to politics, and I definitely don't have a 10-point argument to back my half-baked ideas. But if it helps, that's where I'm coming from (especially if it helps get the other thread back to the discussion on veepstakes!).

BTW, if my post covers BOTH religion and politics, can they cancel each other out so we can move this to someplace benign like retail therapy?

[Sheherezade]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

In true moderate fashion, I picked the middle one.

I think some moral issues are legal issues. Abortion? Perfect example. Moral....but also legal. It's hard to separate. I'm all for the separation of church and state because I don't want my religious beliefs dictated to me by anyone. (Not even a church! ) Still, our system of laws has been based on "morality" - so...overlap. I go with a firm "It depends."

Gaaah! Did that make any sense at all?

[DCJenn]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

I voted that my beliefs impact my politics because I am a humanist/atheist/nontheist (whichever is the word of the day, although they are actually different things- for the technically inclined, I'm a humanist)

As far as I'm concerned, there should be a giant chasm between politics and religion.

For example, I believe that CREATIONISM- YOU KNOW THE GOD ONE? is a religious belief and therefore it should not be made part of the public school system. If The C-word is something that your family believes as a part of your religious beliefs, fantastic for you- but you can send your kid to religious schools.

Teach my kid reading, writing, literature (even all the 'banned' ones) and keep the bible out of it. Because seriously, you can't just teach what Christians believe. There are lots of other world religions out there too. Either teach it all or keep it all out.

Jenn

[Vanquisher]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

Perfect example of having an opinion but not being able to qualify it. I don't know. I think other people's religion influences my political choices much more than my own, since there are so many atheist/nontheist/secular humanist candidates to choose from . It's hard to say because generally conservatives are highly religious and therefore, am I voting against religious beliefs or just conservative principles? I would say they are totally separate for me, but I am not sure if that's entirely true.

In my perfect world, religion wouldn't enter into politics at all. I hate that it does.

[Rapunzel]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

My spiritual beliefs do influence the way I view and interact with the world - including politics. But, luckily, I have a set of spiritual beliefs that are not contradictory and are actually supported by history as helpful to society in general.

[Rapunzel]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

I voted that my beliefs impact my politics because I am a humanist/atheist/nontheist (whichever is the word of the day, although they are actually different things- for the technically inclined, I'm a humanist)

As far as I'm concerned, there should be a giant chasm between politics and religion.

For example, I believe that evolution is a religious belief and therefore it should not be made part of the public school system. If evolution is something that your family believes as a part of your religious beliefs, fantastic for you- but you can send your kid to religious schools.

Teach my kid reading, writing, literature (even all the 'banned' ones) and keep the bible out of it. Because seriously, you can't just teach what Christians believe. There are lots of other world religions out there too. Either teach it all or keep it all out.

Jenn

I'm pretty certain you meant to say creation rather than evolution is a religious belief.... Although, actually, I agree with you that there is a worship of science that can qualify as religion and that, for some, evolution is religion (in that those persons become upset and offended if evolution - even aspects of it- are questioned or tested). Although I adore science and am married to a scientist I think that there is a certain level you reach where your faith in science can actually contradict basics such as the scientific method. The problem comes when parts of science become sacred. In science nothing should be held sacred - that's kind of the point of scientific inquiry.

[Rapunzel]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

(BTW, atheism can count as a spiritual belief, if it strongly affects your political views.)

Trying to redirect the hijack that I started on veepstakes... hopefully without setting myself up for mass stoning from both sides.

Here's my dilemma when choosing a political party:
The Republican side stereotypically has the "conservative Christians," while the Democratic party has... unspiritual people??? So I would expect that Republicans would answer my poll by saying that their beliefs strongly affect their political views, and Democrats would say not so much.

My beliefs (NOT my upbringing) strongly affect my political views. But that's exactly what is making it so difficult to choose a party. What I find is that some of the views of the Republican party don't coincide as well with my beliefs. For example, I can't understand the apparent resistance to taking care of the environment - isn't that one of the first mandates in Genesis? And I also don't understand why many of the economic agendas seem to favor the rich instead of helping the poor.

I have SO much to learn when it comes to politics, and I definitely don't have a 10-point argument to back my half-baked ideas. But if it helps, that's where I'm coming from (especially if it helps get the other thread back to the discussion on veepstakes!).

BTW, if my post covers BOTH religion and politics, can they cancel each other out so we can move this to someplace benign like retail therapy?

I consider myself conservative socially and economically. But, I do not consider myself Republican nor have I ever been a registered Republican. The views of the Republican party do not coincide with all of my beliefs. Indeed, the Republican party is not really conservative anymore. Republicans, as a whole, are actually quite liberal. The only organized party in the United States that could be said to be economically conservative right now is the Libertarian party. Social conservatism is not really a part of politics in my opinion as much as it is an attitude in society. Social liberals attempt to take a societal attitude and force into a government model.

I think the problem you might be encountering is that you have a mindset that you are either a Democrat or a Republican. Where's BonBon when you need her to give the truly Libertarian side to things?

[Rapunzel]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

Actually, I think that an evangelical Christian mindset would tend towards being socially liberal. Why? Well, because evangelical Christians believe that grace alone "saves" them - that you don't have to really take any action to affect your outcome in the eternities. That dovetails nicely into the very liberal social idea that government should "save" everyone regardless of their actions and without expecting anything from those being "saved". Social liberals see the government as a Messiah of sorts - which works well with the evangelical Christian idea of a Messiah that requires nothing but an acknowledgement.

Probably just hacked off 90% of this website.

[SuzySunshine]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

This has been a struggle for DH and I for the last few years. I picked the middle option, I was raised Catholic but do not consider myself to be practicing at this time (other then holidays). I think part of our uncertainty are issues like abortion and stem cell research. Until I faced my own infertility I was very strong pro-life and still consider myself to be pro-life because I still believe life begins at conception. However after going through infertility and being very close to IVF and my husbands job and the cases he's seen with alzheimers and parkinsons I have conflicting feelings about stem cell research.

If I were to have to go through IVF and there were embryos that I didn't use, shouldn't I be able to donate them to science? But then again my religion doesn't believe in IVF which I have even larger issues with. In fact I'm pretty sure my religion doesn't believe in what we had to do to have our precious Adele.

So because I struggle with my religion I also struggle with my political decisions. Its going to be an interesting election for me...

[DCJenn]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

Yeah- creationism-

I can't even keep it in my brain as a concept.

I was too busy today saving San Antonians from themselves- I'm fried. (as a total probably unrelated point, the economy is definitely impacting the # of people in our system. I don't know if they can't afford the drugs, they can't prostitute themselves to buy drugs (no buyers) or they have to resort to different (cheaper) drugs. We are past capacity in every program we have right now)

Jenn

Re: ok, you asked for it...

Addendum - I agree with the first amendment in the 'congress shall make no law establishing a religion nor prohibiting the free practice thereof.' Shouldn't that make all of us happy?

Yes, theoretically! But I don't think it's even possible. How do you have a foundation for making ethical decisions? Think about some of the hottest debates, such as the ones based on the idea that killing people is wrong. Not many people would argue with that... but then we have issues of capital punishment and euthanasia. (I didn't include abortion b/c the debate there is a bit different... not so much whether to end a life as when does a life begin.) Where did we even get the idea that killing is wrong? You could say it's a cut and dried biological/survival instinct, yet look at the issues we face surrounding such a basic belief. Who's to say what's a religious/moral issue and what's not? You could make everyone convert to humanism when dealing with politics - but I'm guessing that wouldn't fly with a lot of people - or even make everyone agree even then!

I haven't made any secret of the fact that I consider myself to be a liberal Catholic. (Among liberal Catholics, this is called being a "social justice" type. ) Absolutely everything I believe is based on my faith, but it's based on my interpretation of my faith, because that's the only way I know how to do it, y'know?

I can trace my position on any issue to a few basic faith tenets. But I don't expect everybody else to do that. It's just the place I come from. What I don't do is take a position based on what my church says. (Plenty of Catholics will stone me for this, but I've come to terms with that.)

I also like to keep government out of the business of religion, but I think as a foundation of belief, religion is absolutely fair game.

This is where I come from too (not Catholic, though) with the caveat above about the difficulty of separating religion and government.

Jenn - I agree that evolution (as pertaining to the beginning of the world) is a religious concept within our culture - made so by the opposing religious beliefs. (But then, I tend to think every view boils down to people's beliefs about spirituality.)

If I were to have to go through IVF and there were embryos that I didn't use, shouldn't I be able to donate them to science? But then again my religion doesn't believe in IVF which I have even larger issues with. In fact I'm pretty sure my religion doesn't believe in what we had to do to have our precious Adele.

You wouldn't believe the questions we received when we went through IVF. Actually, when I walked into the RE's office for our first appointment, I very rudely told him we wouldn't be doing IVF. After he answered questions for us over the course of two years, we changed our minds. In our case, we were spared any ethical dilemmas. DH said he wouldn't go through IVF again, though.

[Rapunzel]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

Oh, I'm about to be completely sacrilegious here:

It's Jenn the Almighty come to save San Antonio!!!

Sorry.

I've probably just dug an even deeper pit for myself.


Going back to what Suzy Sunshine was saying: I think that it is a rare thing to find a religious belief system that agrees with one's spiritual beliefs. In other words, not only do I think there is a separation of church and state - I think that there is also usually a separation people have between church and spirituality. It's weird but I think we actually have THREE things going on here rather than just two: Politics, Religion, and Spiritual Beliefs.

I think I am in the minority when I say that my spiritual beliefs fit completely with my religious teachings. Because I see a lot of people that have a conflict between their spiritual beliefs and their religious teachings just as they have a conflict between their religious teachings and political stands.

Re: ok, you asked for it...

Oh, I'm about to be completely sacrilegious here:

It's Jenn the Almighty come to save San Antonio!!!

Sorry.

I've probably just dug an even deeper pit for myself.

What in the world ARE your spiritual beliefs?! Rapunzel, you need an "I'm just being funny, so please don't take what I say seriously" smiley.

[DCJenn]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

Yeah- that was appropriate. Pregnant heroin addicts prostituting themselves for the drugs or the drug money- yup- that's a fucking laugh a minute.

Done- buttons are pushed. Going to the gym now.

J.

[Rapunzel]

Re: ok, you asked for it...

Yeah- that was appropriate. Pregnant heroin addicts prostituting themselves for the drugs or the drug money- yup- that's a fucking laugh a minute.

Done- buttons are pushed. Going to the gym now.

J.

It was a play on words, Jenn.

I'm sorry you've had such a bad day.