New Tax Rebate On The Table

[Rapunzel]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

Have you actually read his proposed policies, McPants? For a country that prides itself in Democracy any socialism is....socialism. He's not as extreme currently as other socialist leaders in the world. But, all religious persons are not Osama bin Laden, either (forgive my mangling of his name).

Yes, he appears to be in support of socialist principles. We've had other presidents in the past with similar socialist principles (FDR being one of the most prominent). That does not equate with calling him Hugo Chavez.

[McPants]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

Have you actually read his proposed policies, McPants? For a country that prides itself in Democracy any socialism is....socialism. He's not as extreme currently as other socialist leaders in the world. But, all religious persons are not Osama bin Laden, either (forgive my mangling of his name).

Yes, he appears to be in support of socialist principles. We've had other presidents in the past with similar socialist principles (FDR being one of the most prominent). That does not equate with calling him Hugo Chavez.

I suppose debating this issue is completely pointless, given the differences in perspectives between us, however I'll provide at least one article written by an American that supports my stance.

Sure, I suppose if you nitpick Obama's policies in order to find ways in which you can claim them to be socialist, you'll succeed. Rest assured, however, if you talk to anyone from a socialist country and claim that Obama belongs to that category, they'll wonder to themselves which planet you're from.

It intrigues me though, do you believe Obama may eventually grow to be as extreme as Castro and Chavez, etc? You appear to insinuate that, given how you choose to phrase the sentence "He's not as extreme currently as other socialist leaders in the world."

[DCJenn]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

Don't worry McPants, most of us are confident that we're not marching lockstep towards socialism and that Sen. Obama is not a socialist, terrorist, or extremist in any sense of those words.

Jenn

[PrincessFiona]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

I'm still not sure what I'll do in regards to this election. Write in Hillary? I don't know.

My biggest issue with Obama is that I don't support his tax policy. I wouldn't argue that he wants socialism, but I do think that his tax proposal leaves something to be desired. I was listening to one of his spokesman this morning on one of the morning shows (MSNBC) talking about how only if you earn "millions of dollars a year" you will be affected by an increase in taxes. But $250k is a far cry from millions, and though it certainly is a lot of money and I believe we all have to pay in....considering the amount of debt some people have to go in to to earn such incomes and the fact that a lot of hard work and sacrifice is behind it too...I can't support Obama's tax policy. Doesn't hard work mean anything anymore? I guess when Obama gets elected we'll have to calculate how many fewer patients Thomas will accept!

We struggled for many years to get where we are, have very limited retirement (and after the stocks have collapsed, have even less) and we have also got next to nothing set aside for college for our kids...because of the years of training and debt. If Obama raises taxes, does this mean that my children will get the same grants to go to college as someone who has kids who earns 40k/year, doesn't pay taxes but benefits from free money for college? I won't get social security, but we're sure paying in a boatload...should we increase the cap, allowing us to pay in more and then not collect in the end?

So, if I understand correctly, taxes will go up for people earning over $250k, the cap on medicare will be raised, and the tax cuts will expire. That's a lot more money to lose every month....

I'm all for reaching out, reaching back, paying respect to teachers and communities that have supported us...all for it....but...I also want some fairness in the system. I'll pay the taxes if I get to reap the same rewards.

At least in Germany when you pay taxes like this, your children can go to college for next to nothing, healthcare is free for all children and elderly as are medications, and most treatments are without cost for people....of course, the German healthcare insurance system mandates that everyone pay in from their paychecks each month. It's not a choice...another problem that I have with Obama, btw. How can you let someone choose? Of course the young will assume they will stay healthy and not pay in...and then when they have an accident or develop an unexpected illness we will still be stuck with the bill. The sick and elderly will pay in but will use up more money than is paid in.....duh....

McCain? I just don't know that he has a strong enough grasp on economic issues. I certainly know that I don't, but I'm not running for office! I don't really know that I care much for Sarah Palin....

This is a really weird election cycle for me. I'm not sure what I'll do.

Kris

[DCJenn]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

If you're making 250k a year, you're only taxed on the amount that's OVER the 250k. So if you're making 350k you're taxed for 100k of it.

We'll never make 250k so it looks good to me!

Jenn

[PrincessFiona]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

If you're making 250k a year, you're only taxed on the amount that's OVER the 250k. So if you're making 350k you're taxed for 100k of it.

We'll never make 250k so it looks good to me!

Jenn

Our tax law is wack. We are stuck paying the AMT...and I don't want to pay another dime to hand if off as a rebate check to someone who doesn't even pay taxes...why not just pilfer my bank account and we'll call it what it is...theft.

ETA...that wasn't directed at you ... I meant it in a global sense in discussing taxes...

[DCJenn]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

Didn't the bailout include the AMT provision?

J.

[PrincessFiona]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

I don't know....did it? I'm so confused about the bailout at this point and what it did and didn't offer. I can't imagine that it did.....but I'd sure like to have something play to my advantage. Hows' that for hypocrisy?

[Sheherezade]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

Bailout extended the AMT provisions that were set to expire. If you were caught in ATM last year, you would probably still be caught now. AMT is a huge problem that must be resolved. I think Heidi posted an actual numbers calculation of tax increases under Obama for those of us that will be subjected to it. Here's an article that I read recently with real figures as well. Figures are from a non-partisan tax group although the article is definitely written in a sarcastic tone. (warning!) It puts the increas in taxes on a family receiving 250 K a year at an extra $257 per year. That's tiny. (And yes...the 35% bracket increase from 33% is only applied to the extra 45 K earned beyond the 204K fourth tier bracket. Fourth tier would not be subject to increase. )

http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/...xes/index.html

I think AMT is a bigger problem than reverting tax brackets to the Clinton year levels. (Or even the Reagan years.)

I'd also like to comment that people that "pay no taxes" are in fact paying payroll taxes towards SS and Medicare with the rest of us. They don't take every dollar home -- and they pay in for every penny they earn a year at that 6.5%....not just the first 84,000 (or whatever the cut off amount is). So, they aren't freeloading on the government for SS and Medicare help later in life. I think it is misleading to say they "pay no taxes".

[PrincessFiona]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

Well, I understand that people who pay only social security consider that they pay taxes, but they are indeed paying into social security, which is a different beast altogether. We have to be upfront about that....I'm not saying that they are freeloading for social security later in life...but they are getting tax rebates for free...from you and me...and if you're ok with that, that's ok.

At the same time, why would I want to raise the cap on social security? First of all, it is money that I am unlikely to ever see for my own retirement and secondly....if something were to happen to Thomas, I would only get a portion of his social security...not even all of the money he paid in. It's ridiculous.

Also...the $257 thing assumes that the AMT is phased out. Also, it assumes that the individual is self-employed which places the individual in a lower tax bracket.

Maybe one of our accountants can step in and correct me.


http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23780.html


But quite frankly, I don't care if this is 'just' a dollar increase. I'm offended by the attitudes of the politicians and their supporters who claim that people who work hard and earn a decent income are "rich" people who almost deserve to be punished by taking away what they work hard to earn.

I'm no Bill Gates, but why should he pay another 100,000+/year? Look at what he invented and developed and all of the jobs that he has created in the process. Holy balls...he created an industry...should he be punished for his success? There are a lot of people here locally that are pretty vocal about their anger over physician salaries....but does med school, residency and fellowship mean nothing? How about working 60+ hours/week and the intellectual input?

Perhaps we could just decide as a country that no matter what job you do or your educational level...no matter what scientific discovery you make....you earn the same as everyone else.....Would that be fair?

sigh.

I feel like a republican. I'm scaring myself.

[PrincessFiona]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

BTW...removing the tax cap on social security would cause a tax increase of up to 12.4% on the highest tax brackets...bringing it up to 54.9%. The average family pulling in 100k/year would see their tax burden go up by ~$1500 the first year. (NCPA) The heritage foundation (def. not non-partisan) puts the higher income earners at ~9000/year. Either way, that's a much bigger chunk of change than $257. I'm sure that much money would impact people's ability to put away money for college for their kids, donate to churches and charities, etc. Uncle Sam had better buckle up for the ride, because even though I don't believe in increasing taxes, I think health care is a right and moral obligation in this country and that it is our moral responsibility to help others. Of course, it appears that our government values paying for unnecessary wars and bailing out wall street instead....maybe I'll just sit out this year.

[Sheherezade]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

I agree that the SS tax cap is also a much bigger issue. I don't think it has been central in Obama's tax plan. I haven't heard him say it is definite -- in fact both candidates have avoided the SS issue. I only raised the SS issue because the running talking point seems to be "people that pay no taxes" in the McCain/Palin stump speeches and it grates on me nerves. I understand that SS and Medicare taxes are a different set of programs - but they are taxes. No one gets a total free ride that works in the U.S.

I have issues with the SS cap removal program as well. I'm not in favor of it. It would be a HUGE chunk of change and I'm not sure that SS will be there for us. I don't think that the SS plans are clear for either campaign, so I haven't used that as an issue to evaluate. Obviously, that would go through the Senate/House----and much discussion would occur. I'd imagine that (as with the bailout) there would be many, many emails to read for my local Congressman.

[Sheherezade]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

The best I could find in the Obama website tax plan literature:

Obama does not support uncapping the full payroll tax of 12.4 percent rate. Instead, he and Joe Biden are considering plans that would ask those making over $250,000 to pay in the range of 2 to 4 percent more in total (combined employer and employee).

So....I'm not sure. I guess that means they aren't uncapping? Just adding a bit more? My take away message is that there is no solid proposal for SS at this time.

[PrincessFiona]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

OK...so not to nitpick, but....they will be getting a tax rebate on taxes that they were not subject to pay....so really...as silly as the stump speeches are, it's true....and...they continue to pay into social security like the rest of us and may or may not see anything from that. It's not like they will be getting the money that they paid into social security back.

:>

I am just nitpicking though.

Just watch...at the end of the day, I won't be able to pull the lever for McCain and I'll end up voting for Obama after all. Who knows....

ETA: Obama must have changed his ss proposal, because earlier in the campaign year when it was between him and Clinton, this is one of the reasons that I leaned towards Clinton. At that time, he was a strong uncapper....and she was a leaveitaloner.

[PrincessFiona]

Re: New Tax Rebate On The Table

OK...so I have to be clear about one more thing...

I'm not opposed to paying taxes. I think health care is a right and not a privilege and I feel that as a society, we are morally obligated to take care of those less fortunate than us. I try to walk that walk too in my daily life...

I'm ticked off that our tax dollars go to fund ridiculous pet projects, unnecessary wars and now to make sure that Wall Streets fat cats still get their bonuses. It's wrong. Our priorities are all wrong.

If you said to me "Kris, we want you to pay more money in taxes each year, but for that money, we will guarantee quality universal health care and free college education" I'd say "OK!"

As it is though, our govt. will simply take the money, and not put it where it belongs...social programs for poor children, programs to support mentally ill people forced to live on the streets, universal health care...even education.

The money is not spent on the people of this country...it benefits a chosen few. I think that is wrong. I don't want to support that. On top of it all, I am fortunate to be where I am in my life right now, but my house has lost 25% of its value, our retirement has been blasted down to next to nothing and any college money we had set aside for our kids is now...pooof! Do I get to say what about me or do I just write the check to uncle sam to make sure those CEOs get their bonuses even though the companies have gone belly up.

This is my very own personal boston tea party. Didn't the founding fathers of this country break away from England in part because they were opposed to higher taxes?

Look..I'm a republican and a socialist all bundled up into one crazy website poster.