Truancy? Really?

[Sheherezade]

When we were in school (25 years ago!), the rule was that you couldn't miss more than 15 days in a grading period no matter what. If you did, you received no credit for the coursework. That was high school. I think that's reasonable -- and if you had to take your kid out for a once in a lifetime event, you could work out some option beforehand to make up the credits. Maybe summer school, college coursework or repeating it in the next year? I'd imagine that would make the decision weigh more heavily on the family and they would have to decide if the trip was worth the cost. It would also make sense educationally.

In the elementary years, I don't get the strict guidelines. If your work is suffering, then the parents will need to help or you will be held back. I can't see a few days to visit grandma resulting in repeating third grade.

It shouldn't be the teacher's responisbility to catch up the student for a planned absence. They should provide the work and the family has to help. It was their choice, after all. I don't think a teacher should have to seriously rework her schedule because a student went out of town for a week. The student and the family should bear this burden. I wouldn't have a problem with this, either.

Here, you get two days to make up work here for each day of an excused absence; after that, it is a zero. Same for testing date extensions. If you don't notify the school about an absence of any kind, you are called, your emergency contacts are called and then the police are called -- for safety reasons (they say). It's a small town. Honestly, I think if I heard the police or my neighbors had been called because I forgot to tell the school we were going out of town, I'd NEVER forget again! I've never heard about truancy being charged; I did overhear the guidance counselor talking to the school secretary about how they needed to have some parents in for a conference because of the extended absences of their child. All excused -- but way beyond acceptable. I think that's what a good school system would do - check it out and figure out what's going on.

[SuzySunshine]

I don't think you should be able to pull them out for anything and everything but I do think that within reason a few days is very reasonable. Family trips that are also educational and things like that are reasons, IMO.

[Phoebe]

Our school district has stepped up their attendance policy this past year. It has ticked a lot of parents off. The letters and meetings start coming after 7 excused absences and delinquincy begins after 12. We haven't run into a problem because we haven't gone on vacation or have very sick child in elementary (knock on wood). However, some parents have said, the school nurse wants them to bring their kids in to verify that they are sick enough to stay home. Another mom in our brownie troop pulled her daughter out in March to home school her because she was sick of the letters and they wanted to go on vacation. The mom is excessively over-protective of her first-grade daughter is convinced she needs "rest time".

One of my friends who is married to a physician decided to home school their two kids this year partly because her husband's vacation schedule never coincided with school vacations.

Overall, I think it sucks.

[PrincessFiona]

So there are crazy school things outside of my hometown? I guess the water is really flowing downstream and getting into the main supplies in other towns now too.

What's funny is that if the parents had just lied and called the kids in sick it would have been no problem...

My parents pulled me out of school for 3 weeks in the 8th grade to take a trip to South America. I had to complete all of my school assignments while gone and some of my teachers gave me creative alternatives to what was being served up in the classroom. For example, I had to write journal entries each day about the different places that we were visiting and take pictures, etc. I had a great presentation when I got back and I learned more than I ever could have imagined.

That made it possible.

should parents have the ultimate discretion to pull their kids out? Yes.

Should schools have the ability to decide whether a child had completed enough assignments to pass? yes

I think that a minimum attendance requirement is acceptable and that a district is entitled to make exceptions for families.

Kris

ETA...I think things really have evolved to a point that schools feel that they know what is best and can do it all better. Also, they just schedule and schedule and schedule things for us to be at in the evenings...and...of course...the more and more intrusive "sign this, sign that" that comes home.

It is mind-boggling...really.....

[HouseofWool]

I think there is a fine line that the schools have to walk. On one hand, I was irritated that I received a letter indicating that Caleb had been truant during the first grading period. Um, yeah, he was in the hospital for 7 days. Not so sure that he could make kindergarden class.

On the other hand, I am glad that it started with a letter notifying us of his absences. If he had been older and skipping school, I would have wanted to know before jumping straight to prosecution.

I understand a zero-tolerance, but there has to be reason behind it. I also agree with DCJenn that if we were to get the opportunity to travel overseas that the kids would come with because it is truely an enriching experience. I know that my travels still impact how I view the world.

My feeling is that at the elementary grade level, if my child is working at grade level, a few missed days outside of school vacations isn't a problem. Along that line, if someone gives me grief about missing school, then it needs to be worth missing. Frankly, she could miss a day a week and i don't think her learning would suffer (provided work is made up). I give the teacher notice and expect to help with any missed work.

I think the instance of what happened in the original post is just silly. I completely agree that I would want to know if my middle or high school student was skipping school and I can see the purpose of truancy policies in that instance. However, my suspicion is that this has a lot to do with funding and perhaps funding being tied to the number of actual days students are in class.

[houseelf]

I think things really have evolved to a point that schools feel that they know what is best and can do it all better. Also, they just schedule and schedule and schedule things for us to be at in the evenings...and...of course...the more and more intrusive "sign this, sign that" that comes home.

I resent the intrusion of the schools on the family. It isn't enough that some of these schools have Nazi attendance policies, but they pour on the weekend and evening activities along with more homework than I had in college. The majority of parents have experiences and lessons that they too want to share with their children. This is being usurped by the schools. Admittedly, I've been hanging out with a bunch of homeschoolers, so my thoughts are becoming increasingly nonmainstream. I grow closer to joining their ranks every single day. Fortunately I'm somewhat protected from some of this stuff because of the montessori route that we're on. Still, I get fired up on behalf of other parents. I'm ready to march.

I can guarantee you that my kids will be pulled for cool travel or family experiences. Period. My backpacking through Europe and Africa taught me as much as my entire college education.

Kelly

[DCJenn]

Exactly- it's not my "Statistics for the Social Sciences" class that sticks with me, it was my three weeks in Germany after I graduated that I can remember almost day by day, 20 years later.

I 'get' truancy. San Antonio ISD has one of the highest dropout rates in Texas. (and the corresponding teen pregnancy rates, as well.) I understand that especially at the high school level, 'most' of the families are not having life enriching holidays overseas. or even at Grandma's house. They're more than likely staying home to care for a family member or having to quit to get a job, (less and less likely these days- anyone see that the #s for adult GED classes are way up thanks to the recession?) or become one of the bajillion dropout dope-peddlers.

But...if you tell the school ahead of time and you plan to have your kids show evidence of "1000 castles I saw on vacation", then I'm sorry, the school has no right to tell me or any other parent what to do.

and for those kids who are being forced to dropout to support the family then I would suggest that it's cheaper in the long run to hire social workers to function as case managers between the family and the social services supports the family may need - and get that kid to graduation, than it is to let that kid walk away to take care of moms other little kids. (or their own little kids. or both)

Jenn

[mommax3]

Quick thought.....

I agree with the ridiculousness of what Jenn posted, and with what everyone else has posted, too. However, I know that in Indiana, in order for a school to make AYP (adequate yearly progress) they have to maintain a certain attendance rate. If they don't make AYP, they will lose funding and risk being taken over by the state. The rest of AYP is tied to test scores (which have to get higher every year, because according to NCLB, *every* child will pass these tests by something like 2014...... WHATEVER!!!!) and schools here (including mine) are doing whatever they can to make AYP. I don't know that anyone at my school really thinks it is bad when parents of good students take their kids out for vacation, but they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I am assuming that all states have their own version of this and that is the reason for the rule-tightening.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

And to dovetail off of Sally....and disagree slightly with myself...I think trips to Germany, etc can generally be planned for the summer. I mentioned that my family took me to S. America....and honestly....I'm not sure why it was planned for the time that it was but I'm still grateful for the experience.

My kids learned a lot traveling to S. Dakota and Canada and we'll be traveling again this summer after school is finished. BUT...we did take a week off to drive to TX this year and I can understand why the school was upset with me. Learning on the road aside, if all of the kids are missing for this and that then at some point learning for everyone is hindered.

I do think there have to be attendance guidelines and a minimum attendance requirement.....but I also think negotiations should be possible from time-to-time.

In this case, it sounded like they did talk with the district first.....

Kris

[houseelf]

Sally & Kris,

I completely empathize that the schools are in between the proverbial rock and hard place. I swear to you I have the greatest empathy for what has been shoved off on them.

However, parents are completely overloaded. More and more is being shoved off onto parents. Parents are squeezed at every.single.turn. More homework. More sports obligations. More fees. Less access to busing.

All of this occurs at a time when individuals are forced to work more hours with less time off. Believe you me, I would have loved for my husband to have scheduled his vacation with Christmas break over the past seven of the nine Christmases, but that is not this family's reality. Sometimes it is not possible for family's to conform with the district's policies and schedule.

The schools don't mind disrupting families' schedules when it benefits THEIR needs. One such policy that comes to mind is the mandatory morning teacher meetings rendering A.M. kindergarteners to shrink their class days from 10 a.m. to 11 a.m. seven times a year. This represents an enormous waist of tax payer dollars (busing) and family resources. Nonetheless, this apparently suits the schools. My boss would have flipped out justifiably. She was already at her limit with my need for time off due to lack of family and/or husband support with days off. In this scenario, my kids would be truant 7 out of 7 times.

Getting back to the original scenario: above average, younger students missing school to visit extended family charged with truancy. Seriously? Mandated curriculum is more important than knowing their family history and creating relationships? I feel for this family so much because I lived it. If I wanted my kids to know their cousins, grandparents, the location of their birth, we traveled home when we could. Obviously this is not an issue now, but it could be again for us if we move in the impending years due to DH's career.

Besides, give parents a little credit. Most parents, although admittedly not all, give experiences to their kids that are as equally beneficial as mandated curriculum. Travel has come up often amongst this particular crowd, but I can remember fishing with my grandpa, gardening with my dad, and various other life endeavors. In the particular group represented by this board, most kids are exposed to books, puzzles, enrichment classes, important conversations, and a host of other life enriching experiences.

Clearly I have deep passions about this issue. I promise my kids are doing just fine academically and they aren't truant. This scenario hits home for me because of the lack of respect on both sides of the equations. Obviously, parents need to understand the predicament of the schools. Conversely, schools need to view the parents as a PARTNER in the education process, not an impediment. I see evidence of the contrary all the time.

O.K. I'm off to burn something or march somewhere. If you see me out and about, remind me what I'm fired up about.

Kelly

[Sheherezade]

Kelly - ITA.

The relationship between school personnel and families has become more and more adversarial and less of a partnership. I'm not sure why but it is the wrong path. Everyone has their own set of issues. Still within any group of parents, you can find something that has been foisted upon them or taken away from them. I do believe the schools are trying to do best by the children. Maybe it is just that "one size fits all" policies do not get great results in education. They've realized this at the level of the student-- maybe we need to start applying this to the families in a district as well.

[Flynn]

so much to say...not enough time.....will comment later......deep breath. Exhale.

[Flynn]

Jenn's post that sparked this topic (nice job Jenn ) is an unfortunate situation -- a really silly application of rules. In a perfect world any child who can learn something and only miss a FEW days should be allowed to have said experience -- assuming they aren't behind already. I think we all can agree on this.

Further, there is not ONE area in public school education that isn't broken. NOT ONE. I can't speak to private schools because they are so different from each other and they have more flexible rules than the public schools. The entire Public system needs to be changed/altered/completely made again. This is not going to happen any time soon but that's what is needed.

I am going to speak in HUGE generalities here and I won't be accurate in many states or school districts depending on the topic. Try and cut me some slack for my larger points please as you read this post.

Unfortunately attendance rules are there for a reason. States are picky about who gets funds now -- attendance matters in most of them and honestly our society is suffering from an alarming rate of NO ACOUNTABILITY these days. Parents, the home life, however we define this is JUST as much to blame here as the rest of the group -- poor administration, lack of leadership, slacker teachers, government blunders etc. etc.

For every kid who is taken out for an educational experience I would argue that at least 5 more are out for silly reasons. What's educational and what's silly? We all know in theory what the answer is, but what happens when all trips abroad are signed off on and yet when a kid's aunt Carol needs to dry out in detox and they need to take a trip to watch Carol's kids -- that's not okay?

Additionally most families are not going to say "Aunt Carol is on a bender again" they are going to say the kid missed school for family reasons. What they hell is that? Well in this case it's a GOOD reason but many families see "golfing with Dad" as something that has to happen during school hours 15 - 20 times a year as a "good" reason to miss school. I call bullshit on that.

The 'HAVES' will continue to HAVE and the 'HAVE NOTS' will get screwed without definitions. Responsible parents will have their judgement taken away in some cases because of past abused rules to try and make the future playing field more balanced. It's not fair but it is what it is. This doesn't mean Johnny shouldn't go to Paris and walk through all the amazing art museums but you get my point. I want Johnny to go to Paris --but I also want Aunt Carol's kids to be taken care of by family.

PUBLIC school has to have definitions for all these things in large part to continue to get MONEY when it's scarce and also because lawsuits are a district's worst nightmare. A district's budget is made up of different pots of money. If one of these pots goes dry due to being slapped on the wrist for things like attendance or not enough hours in the classroom -- everyone suffers.

Schools are broke. Education costs money.

I don't have any answers but I was there, in the classroom TRYING against completely screwed up odds to be a "good" teacher and give my students something they could take and USE later in their life. I did this for about 6 dollars an hour after my essays were graded, my phone calls returned, my meetings attended, my novels were read, etc. etc. etc. I heard from parents who were upset TEN times more than happy parents. People were busy, I get this but the reality of a teacher who is doing a "good" job is he/she makes enemies because certain parents want you to bend the rules for "their" kid. People ask me about my experience teaching all the time. I get asked "what was your least favorite thing about teaching?" Hands down it was "certain" parents. You know the ones I'm talking about. I mean the parents who can't figure out why Danny is getting a D in English and can't fathom HOW to get Danny motivated? "But he's so bright? What are you doing as his teacher to engage him?"

"Well I'm certainly not doing what your doing Mr. and Mrs. Dimwhit. I'm not waving 50 dollar bills in his face, giving him a car and unlimited time out of the house when he's earning Ds in core classes."

I'll agree that probably 80% of the meetings that were mandatory in my short teaching career were stupid and a waste of time. However, meetings happen during certain times of the day (usually) so the teachers can't ask for overtime and/or contracts are not violated. No meeting can take the place of regular school if the required # of hours in a day isn't observed. Again, I'm being very general here but things happen in a school FOR A REASON -- it might be a goofy, sad, or OMG reason, but there is a reason. Nine times out of ten something happens in a school for a STUPID reason because of MONEY or Parents who complain.

In most schools "continuing education" is a joke. I totally get why parents roll their eyes when there is a day off for students as a result of this reason. Continuing ed. serves a purpose though. In most states you have to continue to "learn" as a teacher and that means PAY FOR CLASSES out of your TINY salary. Continuing ed supplements what a teacher has to shell out (personally) to keep his/her teaching cert. valid. NOTHING is paid for when you go into teaching. I had to shell out 100 dollars to pay for my background check before I was even earning money.


I could go on and on but by now, if you're still reading you deserve a thank you and I'll sign off.

[DCJenn]

Thanks to Flynn and Sally to bring up the ever important other side to this.

I agree, the system is broken. (and I have to say, my experience with a private school is that they're just as messed up but in different ways- one of the private schools here has the rep for giving kids ulcers it's so competitive. and Crunchy School is SO crunchy they neglected to pay taxes for the last 4 years...)

I guess the take away is that everyone is going to have to get together on fixing the system- whichever system there is.

So- ideas?

Flynn & Sally (and any other teachers)- post more when you have time- I'm really interested in you experiences and suggestions.

J.