Truancy? Really?

[houseelf]

Yes, thanks for illuminating us on the other side. I could talk about this system forever because it is beyond broken.

I don't want to loose sight of the fact that the major players, namely educators and parents, want the same thing: well educated, prepared children. We start from the same basic point with the same basic goals.

Nonetheless, both sides feel an increasing crunch by the realities of educational funding, volatile employment situations, lack of extended familial help, increase in commute times, and an overall decrease in funds and time available.

I get that there will be abuses of the system. That is a sad and unfortunate result in almost any scenario in which the Government is involved, from welfare to underwriting real estate. I empathize with the need for hard and fast rules in a system that basically demands a bunch of CYA moves by the educations administrators. Nonetheless, the climate has devolved into one of advesaries. Silly enforcement moves such as the original scenario creates feelings of hostility amongst groups who should be allies. This is where parents feel like they are not being heard, NEVER a good starting point for groups trying to work together towards a common good.

Kelly

[Flynn]

Thanks to Flynn and Sally to bring up the ever important other side to this.

I agree, the system is broken. (and I have to say, my experience with a private school is that they're just as messed up but in different ways- one of the private schools here has the rep for giving kids ulcers it's so competitive. and Crunchy School is SO crunchy they neglected to pay taxes for the last 4 years...)

I guess the take away is that everyone is going to have to get together on fixing the system- whichever system there is.

So- ideas?

Flynn & Sally (and any other teachers)- post more when you have time- I'm really interested in you experiences and suggestions.

J.

Jenn - I love that the crunchy school hasn't paid taxes in four years! Amazing.


These aren't going to be unique or clever -- just things I've been chewing on for years. How to fix this problem? Well damn, I'd much rather answer the "what is the meaning of life."



Anyway:

This country needs to get serious about funding public school education. Paul Newman created a multi-million (billion?) dollar company to fund charities. Why can't we figure out something like this? Why can't we have a lottery/lotto that funds public school ed.? I know there are legal issues but c'mon -- this is just too important to screw up. Casinos? I'm open to anything. Why can our society fund sports venues in abundance and screw education? With more money, teachers can be paid a living wage in some states and competition would be increased. Forgive student loans (or a %) for teachers who teach a minimimun of 3 years in a school that is in the inner city or has fallen on tough times.

Additionally, teacher training needs to be TOTALLY revamped. Again this goes back to the topic of funding. It needs to be DIFFICULT to be a teacher (my training was a joke) so professionalism can be at an all time high and this attitude towards teachers/schools/public ed. in general can be more positive. Student teaching is a few months for most perspective teachers in many states and then you are deemed "certified" and you get a classroom? Stupid. There should be difficult classes, and MENTORSHIP at schools after training. Every new teacher should have an older teacher that they report to on a regular basis and student teaching should be more like a YEAR (or more) rather than a few months. There should be a measuring stick (not just testing or grades) to quantify what teachers are doing on a weekly basis. As I say this however the time and money to create something like this and then implement it, is staggering. Bad teachers should be cut loose. Tired teachers and burned out teachers need to find other areas of employment. Administrators should HAVE both a teaching background AND a business background. They can't just be talking heads that tell everyone what they want to hear and collect six figure salaries.

Out of time for now but I'll come back when I can...

[SuzySunshine]

In Kansas the lottery does fund education but they can't advertise it that way.

[Rapunzel]

Admittedly, I've been hanging out with a bunch of homeschoolers, so my thoughts are becoming increasingly nonmainstream. I grow closer to joining their ranks every single day.

I can guarantee you that my kids will be pulled for cool travel or family experiences. Period. My backpacking through Europe and Africa taught me as much as my entire college education.

YES! Come join the Dark Side, Kelly. (evil cackle)

[Rapunzel]

As an outsider looking in (ie I don't have a horse in this race since we have completely bypassed the public school system):

This just appears to be logical results from what I see. I don't think public schools as a whole are "broken" - I think this is just the way it naturally plays out with a highly centralized, national education system.

On one hand parents want schools to act and react as local entities - locally controlled, locally funded, with a very real relationship with the families these schools serve.

On the other hand is...reality. No Child Left Behind sealed into place federal control over all school systems in a drastic way. I completely see what both Flynn and Sally are saying. And, I think that the more federal control you see over school districts the more of this you are going to see. It just makes logical sense to me. If it's not locally controlled and locally funded you are not ever going to see families have true relationships with school districts on a level that needs to happen for the sake of the students.

Carter was an awful president. And, one of the absolute worst things he did was create a cabinet level position that placed the federal government over all public education in this country. You can trace the downward spiral of education in the United States from that moment onward - all the way to NCLB.

[Rapunzel]

Regarding teachers:

My mil is a public school teacher and she believes quite differently from Flynn. Her experience has been that the people who become teachers are generally qualified for their positions.

Now, speaking as someone who has taught every single subject from kindergarten through seventh grade: Honestly, the subject matter is quite easy. Communicating that subject matter is also quite easy. The hard part for a public school teacher (and, this has been confirmed to me by both my mil and sister - both with teaching certificates) is coordinating large numbers of children all at once. And, I must admit that is not a task I would relish.

[houseelf]

I feel somewhat awkward about having such vehement feelings on this subject. After all, my kids have only ever gone to private montessoris. I just see what my friends kids go through and it is such a crock of excrement. I'm ready to take up the cause on their behalf because kids, families, and teachers deserve better.

And now to leave the thread while stoking the flame...I think ONE of the solutions is school choice reform.


Kelly

[Rapunzel]

And now to leave the thread while stoking the flame...I think ONE of the solutions is school choice reform.

Thank you for making me cackle evilly a second time today!

[Flynn]

Regarding teachers:

My mil is a public school teacher and she believes quite differently from Flynn. Her experience has been that the people who become teachers are generally qualified for their positions.

Qualified and exceptional are two different ratings from my experience. Most of the teachers I have taught with are "qualified." The problem is the standards are so horribly low you get a mixed bag when comparing "qualified" adults that are in the classroom. Additionally, requirements vary a great deal from state to state.

If we are going to "fix" a broken system, teacher training should be on the list IMO. I certainly could have benefitted with a tougher curriculum and longer mentorship before I had to take on classes by myself.

[Meenah]

I think continuing education is vital for teachers. These kids are our future and they deserve the best we can give them educationally. I also think tenure should be outlawed in education across the board.

[Sheherezade]

Agree with no tenure. Agree with school choice, vouchers, school competition and open enrollment options. Agree with tougher teacher training. (And I'm a liberal Dem!)

I would add that I think something has to be done to increase respect for teachers from PARENTS and the community. Too many people think of teaching as a fall back for the kids that couldn't be investment bankers, lawyers, doctors and what have you. They weren't up to that, so they did teaching. Not many will admit to it - but I know that sentiment is there. Somehow, other professions get a more basic level of respect. I don't think it is only the money, either. I was in research and I made squat and people still thought I'd be stepping down intellectually and professionally to be a teacher. What's up with that? The latent feminist in me wonders if it isn't because teaching is traditionally a "mommy" profession - like nursing. (How's that for stirring up another hornet's nest?! )

[mommax3]

I hate tenure for teachers. I hate teachers' unions, although my school system has an alternative union (not affiliated with the big guys) that does what a union is supposed to do without the extra BS.

My big thing is that we should have a longer school year, or year-round school with breaks throughout the year. If that were the case, teachers would have to be paid more and it would become a career that more people would consider.

Continuing education for teachers is mandated here and in most places, I think, but teachers make so little that most of them (myself included, back in the day) take the cheapest courses because it is all they can afford. Better salaries would help with that, or how about letting teachers do continuing ed that by reading journals and taking quizzes online, instead of having to pony up $1500 +++ bucks for a week-long intensive in the summer that probably has little to do with your subject area? How about getting sports out of the public education equation, but requiring that students be doing well in school to participate in club sports? How about giving back local school control to communities, but requiring accountability via a national test?

Just some thoughts.

Sally

[DCJenn]

Angie-

My Liberal Dem self is holding hands with your Liberal Dem self and singing Kumbaya. I completely agree with your entire post.

My cousin is a Home Ec (or Lifestyles Education or whatever it's called now) in one of the worst districts in Columbus. She's mandated at this point to get her Master's- at least be taking classes toward her Master's. She's cool with it for the most part.

She has NO parental involvement and was kind of pissy about it as a new teacher but then realized that mostly it's because the parents are all out working the same hours or more than she is and she's never going to have parental volunteers. Ever.

She loves it. She has three kids under five and will not stop teaching.

I wish more people understood that teaching and all of the other helping professions (aka 'feminine' professions) take a skill set that doesn't just 'happen'. I couldn't be a nurse or a teacher if life depended upon it. I could no more home school Nikolai than I could take someone's blood pressure. (of course, lots of people think social work is a BS profession, too...) It's kind of like musicians- you have to have the passion to put up with the crap.

I honestly think that a lot of this is 'administrative' legacies. Not everyone who has taught or nursed or counseled someone can be an effective administrator, and most of us in said fields know people who were promoted from within who SUCKED once they were promoted. But just as frustrating are those admins who have never taught a class, never taken a temp, etc.

It's been really interesting watching the SAISD growing pains under our new Superintendent. He's been a teacher, he's been a principal. Now he's in charge.

J

[Rapunzel]

Qualified and exceptional are two different ratings from my experience. Most of the teachers I have taught with are "qualified." The problem is the standards are so horribly low you get a mixed bag when comparing "qualified" adults that are in the classroom. Additionally, requirements vary a great deal from state to state.

If we are going to "fix" a broken system, teacher training should be on the list IMO. I certainly could have benefitted with a tougher curriculum and longer mentorship before I had to take on classes by myself.

Interesting assessment.

From the parenting side would you describe the teachers your children have had as exceptional or merely qualified? I guess I'm wondering if this is mostly anecdotal or, if not, what this opinion is based upon?

Like I said, since I'm technically outside of this loop I don't see the things that you all see. So, I learn quite a bit from these conversations.

[Flynn]

I would add that I think something has to be done to increase respect for teachers from PARENTS and the community. Too many people think of teaching as a fall back for the kids that couldn't be investment bankers, lawyers, doctors and what have you. They weren't up to that, so they did teaching. Not many will admit to it - but I know that sentiment is there. Somehow, other professions get a more basic level of respect. I don't think it is only the money, either. I was in research and I made squat and people still thought I'd be stepping down intellectually and professionally to be a teacher. What's up with that? The latent feminist in me wonders if it isn't because teaching is traditionally a "mommy" profession - like nursing. (How's that for stirring up another hornet's nest?! )

Yes yes yes.

I've had parents put pressure on me to change grades because "after all we pay your salary, (taxes)."

Imagine that lack of respect in another professions that were mentioned in Angie's post?

I have a theory that the people who give teachers an alarming lack of respect do so for two reasons (not in order necessarily). The first is they know they are failing as a parent and they are at the "blame everyone else" phase. The second is they had horrible experiences themselves as students and are terrified that their child will end up like they have.

I have compassion for both situations and have won some parents over in these situations when (like Kelly mentioned in one of her posts) I was able to communicate that we both wanted the same things -- a student who worked to their potential and would take certain tools they were learning in my class on to college.

Parents and teachers have the SAME goals more often than not. How to achieve these goals are where problems begin IMO.

Interesting assessment.

From the parenting side would you describe the teachers your children have had as exceptional or merely qualified? I guess I'm wondering if this is mostly anecdotal or, if not, what this opinion is based upon?

Like I said, since I'm technically outside of this loop I don't see the things that you all see. So, I learn quite a bit from these conversations.

When I taught, very few teachers were exceptional. When I was working, this was when I saw teaching up close and personal. Some were tired, some had family issues that hindered the time they could spend on working. Others were jaded -- less than three years into their teaching careers.

The bottom line is I worked with about 50 teachers over my short career and over half of these teachers didn't get above a 900 on the SATs or above a 2.6 in high school. I think many of these teachers respected what they did LESS because they were able to be a "teacher." Some saw themeselves through parents eyes who were less than supportive.
I realize some of these people were just underachievers and ended up being amazing in the classroom.

It needs to be more difficult to be a teacher as far as STANDARDS (not how expensive it is to become a teacher). This will help on the "respect" front AND hopefully put better people in the classroom. I'm NOT downing teachers here -- I'm making a larger point.

Imagine if the CPA didn't exist for accountants? Imagine if there weren't levels of nursing based on training...I'm not explaining myself well right now but hopefully my point is coming through despite my inability to express myself right now. Teachers are all but thrown into the classroom from college right now. Picture an R1 (intern) doing REAL procedures! Teachers have to learn on the job and some people just aren't up to that without more guidance.