The Fascination with Ivy Leagues

[SoonerTexan]

The recent post about the "Raising Happy Kids" book got me thinking...

What is it with our obsession with Ivy Leagues? Though getting into one for undergrad certainly is an achievement and may open certain paths, for the most part I think it can be a rather unwise investment for someone who is paying their own way (grad school excluded).

When DH interviewed at his current school, I went with him. During a break, we sat down at a table with "Yale Guy" and his "Yale Girlfriend" who outright refused to talk to us. Just kept talking about Yale to each other--just a bit of a pompous attitude. Both DH and "Yale Guy" got in to the same place--and there is a very high chance DH paid considerably less for his undergrad education.

Of course I'm not saying all Ivy Leaguers are pompous jerks--I just don't agree that is is the definition of collegiate success for everyone.

[oceanchild]

My DH had very good HS credentials and parents who were willing to foot his entire undergrad tuition bill. He toured almost all the Ivies and ultimately only applied to one. (He also rejected several prestigious east coast liberal arts colleges after visiting them.) He was admitted to the one and did not attend. He HATED the Ivy "attitude". Hated. I find that really interesting because I have a healthy appreciation for the prestige factor. (I didn't apply to any Ivies because I was terrified of moving east. ...which I promptly did upon graduation, but that's another matter, haha.)

I dunno. I'm not anti-private college. I think a lot of private colleges (mine included) do a lot to make themselves more affordable for those who need it. But I also tend to think a good college education is what you make of it.

Also, my ILs pretty clearly wanted DH to go to an Ivy. They seemed disappointed that he chose a west coast school (which he loved). And they seem to really relish the fact that my BIL went to Princeton. Bragging rights?

[scrub-jay]

ST - I'm confused as to how this applies to the book?

The book actually discusses how to teach your kids to be happy with their own successes AND how you define success. Success does not necessarily mean "get into an Ivy League". I'm confused??

[GrayMatterWife]

I have worked with tons of Ivy League law grads. They are like any other mix. Some are very talented. Some are complete idiots. Some are very motivated. Some are lazy. But an Ivy League bumper sticker does nothing to impress, intimidate, or comfort me.

The biggest mistake I see is Ivy League, Big City lawyers who desperately, ignorantly, and arrogantly underestimate "commoner" lawyers. They blow into STL thinking that the fact that they live in NY and graduated from Yale will make the merits of their arguments undeniable. After all, folks here are just silly, petty, not-East-Coast midwesterners. I mean, how could we know anything about the law? We don't even have a Four Seasons in town. They assume you don't know what the Upper East Side is and they talk down to you, over the bridge of the nose holding up their $900 eyeglasses. Then they get their asses kicked. And my judge is a real country guy, so he usually delivers his message with some metaphor involving a folky story involving barnyard animals.

On the other hand, those are the rarer breed. Most Ivy Leaguers I've worked with don't assume their pedigree is going to get them anything other than a "Hey, go Bulldogs!" on an occasion. Which is actually the best way to wear the diploma, I think. Speak softly and carry a lot of good education. It is always better to be underestimated and right than overestimated and annoying.

[bokelley]

Sometimes the saying " It is not what you know but who you know", holds true. Connections are huge and although I am not sure, the Ivy leauge schools seem like they would have some huge connections. I think college is what you make out of it regardless of where you go.

try the book "Hope for the Flowers" by Trina Paulus. It's mostly a picture book that can be read in about an hour but gets at this situation exactly. We don't know what the Ivy/competitive school/specialty/insert-your-own fascination is, but we do know that other people want it, and that often makes us throw ourselves headlong after it. It's like the riots over the hot item every year around the holidays.

And no, I'm not an Ivy Leaguer. Too much snow in that part of the country

[houseelf]

I can't remember where I read it (Outliers? Freakonomics?) but I remember reading the statistic that kids' acadmic success in college correlates more closely with who they board with rather than which college they attend. Perhaps parents should be jokeying to get their kids into the honors dorms at State U rather than a specific college?

As to the original question, I only know a hand full of Ivy Leaguers. Some are fabu and some are meh. I don't have a strong reaction either way.

[Deebs]

I found this funny. I know a bunch of Ivy leagers (I grew up in a fairly competitive area in a largish high school with a huge neighboring high school, so I know a lot of everyone). The only people I've encountered that come off as snotty to me about having Ivy League education are two people who both went to YALE! Just made me laugh.

I'm one of those people who is automatically unimpressed by Ivy leaguers but that's pretty contrary and closed minded of me, I realize. I have never understood the hype. The only people I ever knew who went Ivy transferred after a year. But that's folks coming from the West coast and it's probably more of a culture clash than an issue with the schools themselves. I was always raised to think that education is what you make of it, it's not the name of the school but what you are willing to put in to get out of it. I don't think something is "prestigious" just because of its name.

[reciprocity]

The biggest mistake I see is Ivy League, Big City lawyers who desperately, ignorantly, and arrogantly underestimate "commoner" lawyers. They blow into STL thinking that the fact that they live in NY and graduated from Yale will make the merits of their arguments undeniable. After all, folks here are just silly, petty, not-East-Coast midwesterners. I mean, how could we know anything about the law? We don't even have a Four Seasons in town.

This is hilarious because every time I come to StL with the sr partner on the case (Dartmouth) he insists we stay at the Four Seasons...

I'm one of those people who went to state school for undergrad and then went to a prestigious private law school (not ivy though) and I was part of a very, very, very small minority of people who went to "average" undergrad schools, so in that respect I suppose it makes sense - it does open a lot of doors, and I frequently felt outclassed during law school.

[oceanchild]

But that's folks coming from the West coast and it's probably more of a culture clash than an issue with the schools themselves.

I suspect this is some of what I was describing also.

[madeintaiwan]

DH graduated HS with a 4.5 GPA, enough college credits to almost be a sophmore, 1500s on his SATs, and an induction into the College Football Hall of Fame for excellence on the field and in academics. USC offered him a $20k a year scholarship and he didn't even apply there. He toured all the east coast Ivy League schools and was unimpressed. The other day he was going off about the padding of grades at these schools. Can't fail kids and lose their boosters.

A name is a name, which can be a big help, but there are others ways to make it. I agree with BrainSurgeon, DH went to a middle tier medical school where a good number of people scored very high on their boards. One of his classmates got the highest score on both Step 1 and 2. I also agree with houseelf, your surroundings can have great a influence on your performance.

[scarlett09]

Prestige - the attainment of it and keeping it - have been woven into the fabric of American higher education ever since Harvard was founded in 1636. It ebbs and flows, but has always been there. The fascination with colleges, specifically Ivy League schools, is not new. It just takes on different forms throughout the years. Right now, colleges gain their prestige by becoming universities, apparently this attracts some people (not me, I don't think the small private Catholic college that accepted my idiot HS boyfriend is any better now that it is a university). Another way schools gain prestige is through the formation of Honors programs and colleges, trying desperately to keep those students who would go for the Ivy League schools if possible. There are a plethora of ways that schools try to attain and keep prestige. They are not trying to emulate the Ivy Leagues, but rather follow the trends in academics and student affairs that will attract the best and brightest to their campus. I read a lot about this in my grad program, although it has been a few years and my brain is currently clouded with all of the materials I need to write my thesis.

I am a proud graduate of one of the public Ivies, one of the top public state universities in the country. I was not obsessed with going to an Ivy when I was an undergrad, partially because it was out of my price range (although, I could probably go to Princeton for pennies now). But I really had no interest in it - I knew my SAT scores weren't that high and although I am smart, I tend to procrastinate a lot, which affects my grades (still happening today). I had some classmates who were obsessed with going to the Ivy League, some of them wound up there, in small, private liberal arts colleges or at other top notch public and private universities. All of them are doing great things - in grad/professional schools, working great jobs. Not getting into any Ivy isn't the end of the world and they are living proof of it. I definitely felt some pride when, working in recruitment for my alma mater, we managed to lure an applicant away from the Ivy and to us. Although there was one time that an applicant verbally harassed my office because we cut our fencing program (which had NOTHING to do with our program), she was a top fencer, how dare we keep contacting her when we cut the fencing program, blah blah blah, and now she was going to Columbia or someplace else with a fencing program. I could have thrown her a going away party - don't want some rude, snotty brat attending my alma mater!

Smart parents and teenagers/young adults will realize that attending their community college, state school, small private college will open as many doors as an Ivy does. They just have to work for every opportunity, constantly network and talk to others about their interests and goals. Basically what bokelly and houseelf said - college is what you make of it. I know people I went to undergrad with who are doing great things and others who got the same degree and are working at their local Olive Garden. Not that working in retail or the service industry is bad - hey, its a job! But it is all about how you take your experiences and translate them into open doors after graduation.

Oh, and now students can attend some Ivy League schools for pennies. Some of them have huge endowments that have weathered the financial downturn quite well and can provide significant financial assistance to all of its students, particularily those who are disadvantaged in one form or another. Princeton only increased tuition by 1% this year. Attending an Ivy League school for undergrad does not necessarily equate to massive debt upon graduation anymore.

[scarlett09]

I found this funny. I know a bunch of Ivy leagers (I grew up in a fairly competitive area in a largish high school with a huge neighboring high school, so I know a lot of everyone). The only people I've encountered that come off as snotty to me about having Ivy League education are two people who both went to YALE! Just made me laugh.

And the people I know who are the snottiest about their education are my uncle and two of his daughters, who all went to Bucknell. And then the whole family is all hyped up on how the oldest one got her DPT from Duke But they don't seem to be saying much about the other one working towards her PsyD at OK State, which I think is far more rigorous and exciting. They look down their noses at me, even though I went to a very good public state university for undergrad and will be getting my master's degree from a smaller state school.

[GrayMatterWife]

This is hilarious because every time I come to StL with the sr partner on the case (Dartmouth) he insists we stay at the Four Seasons...

Oh, yeah...you're right! We DO have a Four Seasons! I should have written "The Peninsula"! hahahaha! (Same difference--the judgment is palable!)