Wall Street Protests

[houseelf]

Economist Nassim Taled wrote a ground breaking book, The Black Swan, describing why a thriving ecosystem of smaller banks and businesses are not only necessary for a robust economy but actually protect us from the massive shocks to the system. It is a fascinating book for reasons that exceed the scope of this conversation, but he writes a compelling case as to why the "little trees" (read as: people and small businesses) need more support than they are receiving. In his lauded opinion, Too Big To Fail is contrary to the healthy cycle of businesses and the economy as a whole. Notably the bailout only served the behomeths making us all more vulnerable because everything is hyper interconnected. There is nothing wrong with "Big Trees" per se, but not if cultivating them always comes at the expense of creating rules and support for the big trees.

[SoonerTexan]

This business was in the same industry as us-- subject to the same taxes and regulations. They just weren't executing as well.

[Cinderella]

When a trees roots threatens the foundation of a house or is diseased and dying and threatens to fall on a house they cut it down. They don't try to prop it up with more rain and sunshine to let it keep destroying the foundation of the structure or come crashing down when it's reached it's end.

Businesses on main street across america disappear in the shadow of the largest buildings downtown. If you look up you'll see those huge buildings downtown swallowing the main street businesses up making it a ghost town are the big banks. You can't miss them from the highway when you drive into town. The once prosperous downtown where I came from is now filled with holes where thriving businesses once were. Semi-rural developments remain semi-developed. Kids who can't find work occupy these neighborhoods and loiter. Police services that have been cut because of the reduction in budget are unable to police these areas and maintain the peace so bored kids will be kids and graffiti these areas or go on looting sprees breaking into cars parked in drive ways and houses they think are empty. Public services that once kept these kids occupied with activity have been cut so they are left to their own devices. Teachers are forced on furlough days and classes that kids attended are being cut. So now their education is paying the price. It is the decay of society.

Companies are good at making obscene profits by fleecing resources. Instead of jobs in the US they take their business overseas where they can pay labor in those countries a fraction of their worth and then charge consumers in developed countries far more than their shoddy product is worth. Look at most any product and you'll see a Made in China sticker or stamp in it. China already occupies the world economically through this means. The products aren't made to last either. They are purposely designed to fail within a time limit so that people will consume more. So we lose jobs in return for crappy products so they can maximize their profit. The system is unsustainable. The landfills can't keep taking their garbage at this rate and neither can the people as they witness the decay of their society around them.

With some appropriate correction a developed country can still maintain it's cleanliness, organization and quality of life but what we're witnessing as a society is that this correction hasn't been made because either we've failed to engage our representatives into this dialogue and pleaded our case or that the deck is stacked against the majority of the people in favor of the will of an elite few. And they are also good at what they do because they have millions of billions of trillions of dollars to blow the bullhorn now and drown out the voices of the people. They spend millions into figuring out the tricks that keep us buying. They know what shelf to place their product on to get us to buy it. They know what to put on the package to get us to buy it. And what's on front of that package is either a lie or it's misleading the majority of the time so the people are getting fattened up as well. The corporations and the government are in bed together with things like the Food and Drug Administration. Just look around. Are we a healthy society? Is that really people's choice to be fat and unhealthy? When did the obesity epidemic start happening? Not until the last several decades. The government is so tied up with the meat and dairy industry they can't afford to be honest with the people what is a healthy diet. And the drug companies are insanely influential. Corporations have their mouth pieces to misinform you on a daily basis and they have their researchers finding out the exact tricks to entrap you into the system of consumption and they spend their fortunes on it to maintain this gravy boat. Now they have corporate personhood so their no end to broadcasting. Is it really the victims fault when they are sent credit card offers everyday in the mail and they're struggling to make it by? Before a certain time I'm told nobody was getting daily credit card offers in the mail. The majority of people were healthy and lean too then. Society prospered as the growth of the middle class was important for that.

I have seen some examples of some companies attempting a new model of operation such as google. Where they care about their people and the societies they're involved in and they inspire creativity in the work place by not doing things in the standard tradition. Now these places may be something to consider. Not all corporations are bad but the bad ones are so hyper connected and affecting everyone that it's got to stop. Starting with the money that holds the most influence.

[SoonerTexan]

^^^Half the blame for the problems you mention above belongs to the society we leave in. Corporations are made up of citizens and make the products society demands. You cant just change one and not the other.

[Cinderella]

That's debatable. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Citizens of which country? They have no allegiance to citizenship only profit. Products society demands? Who demanded the iPad? That product was made up with literally no demand for it and they knowingly acknowledge they created a market for the demand. That's the ingeniousness of the Itech industry. Do people demand most of these products or are they unconsciously sold on them? Part of it is our society's problem. I can see that because I've learned that in other society's they are more conscious about their food and regulating what can and can not be put into their food and served to their masses. They won't import certain products from our country because they know we allow things to be given to animals and to the people that are dangerous and they wouldn't allow it to be given to their own people. Is this a symptom of society's problem or our corporations running the show and their tentacles reaching into the very fabric of our lives? Other societies have proven that you can change one and it is for the better of the other.

[corn poffi]

Actually, we won't allow many weird food products into our country either. I've spent enough time going through customs to realize that there is a lot that we won't allow. This summer, I had snack food from China confiscated because it was fit for human consumption, but not okay for farm animals (really).

Saying all corporations are evil and don't care about people is just an irresponsible generalization. I am not conservative by any means, but I think saying "corporations are bad" is in the same line as "unemployed people are lazy".

To keep with the forest analogy, there are trees of all different sizes, and there are other, smaller plants that thrive even among the big trees. There is room for diversity.

I do think that reform is needed, but I do not have any answers. Companies create false demand, but we are the ones who eat that shit up. You can't blame the person who invented something as idiotic as the snuggie for being smart enough to realize that there are people out there crazy enough to buy it.

[Cinderella]

I haven't said all corporations are evil. Over and over I've repeated the same plot lines of appropriate reform and destruction but for some reason it seems the theme "all corporations are evil" keeps getting stuffed in my mouth by others. Maybe that is all they can see from the demonstrators instead of listening what they are saying. I get it. People don't want to face the ills of society or what corporations are doing wrong but that doesn't solve the problem either as that is how we got into the pickle of where we are. I'm going to repeat myself now. I don't know if you've looked around but there isn't much diversity left. It's all corporations. It's all cookie cutter cities with the same stores. Somebody owns all of those just like they own most of the city. The names of the buildings are changed to taco bell arena and <insert> corporate name here. Originality , individuality, diversity is all limited for homogenization as the big names snuff out and puncture holes in middle America. It's been pointed out in the pictures of the protesters just how much corporations are rampant with their influence. There is no room for growth except slow growth in the corporate sector because they take all the resources. The only way for growth, prosperity and diversity is to take those trees down that are failing.

[corn poffi]

I'm not quite so pessimistic. I just moved from a city with 2 traditional fast food restaurant in the downtown area. Yes, burger king and and 2 mcdonalds closed their franchises there because they wer losing business to the locally owned places nearby. Local is not dead. It's incredibly easy to support local businesses in my neck of the woods. Yes, stadiums are named after companies, but that's hardly a new phenomenon.

[Cinderella]

Yay, I'm all for support local and buy local too.

Here is a video of someone who gets the Occupy Wall Street Movement and can explain it in less than a minute. I've attempted to explain it in a longer written format but I've been told some aren't taking the time to read it because it's too long or maybe it's still confusing for some.

[Cinderella]

I was wondering where you were at.

[Momo]

Here are a couple of editorials I've recently read & posted on my FB page (Billy Bragg & Noam Chomsky)

http://www.billybragg.co.uk/blog/?p=193

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/noam-c..._b_851992.html

[Cinderella]

Ok so most of what you say is silly Lily and I am amused but I didn't want to take you to task because there were complaints already that the tone of the thread had turned condescending and I really didn't want to participate in that. I understand you're for corporations and have a difficult time imaging change for the better and have pit yourself against what you presume I stand for.

I don't think you work in corporate America. Why would my or any employee's will be higher than the leader of our company? That makes zero sense. Someone needs to have high-level understanding and vision. Granted, I have access to the heads of my corporation. I am not afraid to ask them pointed questions and have done so on the elevator, in the hallway, or wherever. As for dress, it's a matter of respect and professionalism. Are you going to invest your money with someone who looks organized and professional, or are you going to invest your money with a guy in basketball shorts and a tie dye who looks like he just rolled out of bed after smoking a bowl all night? I also firmly believe in not wearing shorts or jeans to church. It's called Sunday Best for a reason. Dress with respect. Oh and I work with a boatload of openly gay people, a variety of races and ethnic backgrounds, and I must admit I love it when my office neighbor comes and speaks Russian with my officemate.

You say "my employees" is this a slip or intentional? I don't presume to know where you work but when you're boss is friendly enough to take your pointed questions in the elevator or where ever I'm thinking you're on a different level than most subordinates in this country that work at various branches and never meet their CEO's. They clock in when their shift starts and work in uniforms with a name tag that represents said company until they clock out and they only get to speak to their bosses when there are staff meetings on how they as employees are supposed to behave as employee to maximize profit. They spend most their waking life in the daily grind wearing the same outfit answering to someone. And now their life outside of work is affected because what an employee does something outside of their employment it can be deemed an unprofessional representation of the company all while they are off the clock on their own damn time. Granted laws are laws and there to be followed but if you want to complain about your hard day at work and how your boss made you mad but have to self censor yourself because you can lose your job for reflecting poorly on the company where does one draw the line?

I am in the 99% but I'm not pissed off about corporations. As for being expendable, I SHOULD be expendable. If I am not adding value, then I am inherently detracting value from the company and should be replaced or omitted.
Note that I did not open the graph. Facebook graphs are not anything I would ever consider as relevant information. Sorry.

Pro maximize profit response. It devalues the humanity of an employee. Let me give you a recent example. An employee stood up for what was right and ethical when they realized a system that was implemented by management was neglecting the elderly's care. This employee challenged the management to try one day of the system knowing they could lose their job over it because they were new are were expendable but they were also right. The management took the challenge and quickly realized the employee was right and began what appeared to be the process of notifying upper management of the problems with the system and making the changes to the system. The owner flew in from out of state and there was a big meeting and they looked at the system. People had been saying they were doing tasks they were doing and checking them off in the computer. If people were actually doing all those tasks they were saying they were doing it would take additional time which meant additional employees which meant loss of profit to the owner. You know what the owner chose to have implemented instead? They fired the new employee and anyone who agreed with them and hired new people instead who could implement the system they had spent money on exactly the way they set it up. Do what needs to be done and neglect the rest saying you did it when you didn't. Profit over people. These are the managers today.

If you make $2,000 a month or less you are considered in the poverty level. If you make between $3,000-$5,000 a month you are considered in the middle class. Workers today make less than they did 30 years ago while the cost of living rises and this is not a coiencidence. This is a squeeze and to what end is their greed? How much is enough for them? It's not right for the 1% to have more influence over governing a body of 120 million people not to mention the rest of the population.

This is a bit tinfoil-hat for me. Think about how people live, the materiality we embrace, desire and actively pursue, compared to even 30 years ago. We are our own undoing. THAT is the lack of coincidence. It's not because the cost of living is so much higher, it's because we are greedy for cell phones, TVs, cars, clothes, even more food. Today's happy meal at McDonald's was the ADULT meal in the 1950s. Corporations are providing what consumers want. This notion that the ultra-rich are rolling around on a pile of gold coins like Scrooge McDuck is so silly.

First I'll point out the Scrooge McDuck rolling in a pile of coins are words from your mouth not mine. Second it's a bit out of line to call it tin-foil hat when it's based in fact. Really Lily that's just silly.

The answer is simple. They are not too big to fail. Let them fail. Let it shake down

.
Alright. This is downright stupid. So if you were in power, you would let the banks fail? Interesting. What about people with mortgages? Where do the mortgages go? I guess there goes my house. Which would have gone anyway since according to you my company should be shuttered, and without a job I can't afford a house. Do we all just go fashion tents from garbage bags and sit on the street now?

At this point you're not done calling me names yet. Should I even respond? Mortgage derivatives sold to exotic blah blah... do I really need to explain it? With appropriate correction a developed country can still maintain it's organization, cleanliness and standard of living.

Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were both government regulated and at the heart of the mortgage crisis. Airline industry was regulated. Failure.

Now you're not really being honest with yourself or others.

Stupid redwoods. BURN MUIR WOODS!

Here I get you're being sarcastic. Again, do I really have to take you seriously?

have access to three credit unions right now so I feel like they are doing just fine.
So for the M&Ps, what are they selling? How do they afford to open their shops? Since you have toppled corporations and increased unemployment by, say, an additional 20%, who is buying from them? Also, you ruined the banks so the dollar is devalued globally, and we can't afford the prices of imported products anymore. And without large corporations, we have no manufacturing, so we aren't making anything here which they could buy (not that anyone could afford it anyway, because the product cost in the US is far higher than the product cost in China, India, Mexico, etc.).

Innovation will be funded by whom? What about innovations for alternate energy sources - who funds that? What about stem cell research? Who funds that? The ultra rich? They've already shoved off for other countries and aren't paying taxes here anymore. There is no industry left, so why stay when there are hungry countries overseas willing to welcome them with open arms, and sell back to America everything we gave away?

Factory farming is in place because America is obese and wants more meat to shove into its gaping maws. We can't kill cows fast enough to satisfy everyone. Are you going to regulate diets as well? What about foods out of season which are grown unnaturally, really, but demanded by people? I don't know where you live but I'm in the northeast. While I try to eat locally and in-season, by January I would stab someone if I had no access to hothouse tomatoes, butter lettuce, etc. I can only eat so many root veg, white onions, and cabbage heads.

All of this is a response based on your own presumptions of me because you didn't read what I first wrote so basically it's not worth responding to a fools argument. Though there was some good stuff in there towards the end that touched on what SoonerTexan, Rapunzel and CP touched on.

I'll take this in two pieces. First, there is no way to "hide in the shadows". If you google (another evil corporation, alas...) for the board of any publicly held corp, you can see all the BoD, you can see the CEO, CFO, etc and the compensation for everyone at the top. It is provided in the Annual Report every year. That you think there is a way to hide in a public company makes me think you don't know where to find the information so I hope this is useful.

Ultimately, what I am gleaning from your thoughts is that you want to revert to pre-Industrial Revolution and live simply like Little House on the Prairie. That is fine, and I hope you can achieve that. However, not everyone is on board with that and you already have the ability to do that. So get to getting, friend. All of these things are already available to you, without financially bankrupting the rest of the country and/or possibly the world. Here are some ideas to get you started:

- Install solar panels on your house and live off the power grid
- support your local farmers market
- join a CSA
- eat only local, in-season foods
- keep your money in a coffee can
- get rid of your car, if you have one
- only buy what you can afford to pay out of pocket, including medical school
- as Pa Ingalls would say, "Cash on the barrel." And frankly, if you watch enough Little House, you know Pa was as bad with money as they come (see "A Harvest of Friends" and "The Inheritance").

Good luck. I'm off to the farmers market and then getting my hair dyed with some chemicals assembled by the good people at Redken.

For the first part that is good information however I've been addressing what goes on between corporations and politicians behind closed doors but I can see how you can take it the way you did. Also not all corporations are posting their meeting minutes and exactly what they're doing unethically. That takes some investigation. You're last quip on your idea of what you gleam from my thoughts are more of a reflection of you rather me but it is an amusing bit. It's not very encouraging to want to continue dialog with you however if this is the way you practice communication with others. Many of those things you suggested are things all good suggestions but it again is based on what you think it is about. It's about doing away with what's not working. Getting corporations out of what they fail at. Holding them accountable for it. Basically firing them like they fire us when it isn't working. Getting them out of our politics and having all the political influence where they are catered to by the government and somehow if possible getting back to striking a balance that works for the people.

As we've demonstrated already continuing this conversation any further is repeating rhetoric from both sides. I just wanted to make sure you felt heard as well and that my points were heard and perhaps more clear. Now I'm tired and have spent much more time on this then I intended to and don't really have anything more to add to the subject. It will be interesting to continue to observe the movement from where I can because I'm not really allowed to participate in it though I have felt this way for a long time coming and I'm thrilled there are those who agree. I should be there with them but I also have to pay the bills as it's not just me who I'm feeding.

[Cinderella]

Here are a couple of editorials I've recently read & posted on my FB page (Billy Bragg & Noam Chomsky)

http://www.billybragg.co.uk/blog/?p=193

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/noam-c..._b_851992.html

Thanks, I'll check them out Momo.

[SoonerTexan]

They clock in when their shift starts and work in uniforms with a name tag that represents said company until they clock out and they only get to speak to their bosses when there are staff meetings on how they as employees are supposed to behave as employee to maximize profit. They spend most their waking life in the daily grind wearing the same outfit answering to someone.

Ummm...and they are paid for their work. It's not forced servitude.

Ideal? No. Reality? Yes. Does this happen across the board? No. Are some companies guilty of bad labor practices? Yes.

Residents go through the same dang thing, but hey, that's how you become a doctor. No one forced our husbands to go to med school, despite the breakdowns and bad parts of the system.

I agree this has gotten condescending, but everyone is guilty. And FWIW, when it comes to economics, I think LilySayWhat has a good idea of what is going on after 2 years of reading her contributions to this forum.

[fluffhead]

It's funny how opposite extremes always end up so close in their opinions. The Tea Party started as Ron Paul supporters, right? Anti-big bank, anti-federal reserve, libertarian, honest old Ron Paul.
Cause now I'm hearing alot about how the nyc protesters are keeping their cash contributions (when added to online contributions, apparently approaching $100,000) in a big pot, to avoid using banks.
The socialists and the libertarians might find some common ground, if they could avoid killing each other.

I read as much of the Chomsky article as I could stomach. He's _so_ smart, but always impressed me as a big fat doodyhead.