Religious Observances During Residency

[GrayMatterWife]

Again, for the 4th or 5th time, she didn't complain to her PD, she was complaining to me. She didn't make any points other than that she was disappointed that she could not be accommodated one day when others were. She wasn't bitching, she was simply bummer because she loves morning Easter Mass.

It is MY question which is basically your point above if you read my list of questions. How can one religion trump another or trump people without religion? In my opinion, it's wrong that they accept any religious requests if they can't accept them all. I assume those residents were upfront about their need for every Saturday off in residency but it seems to me that it's still unfair to other residents in the program who don't have a religious reason.

I know medicine doesn't care what's fair. I'm asking what you guys think is fair.

I got that. She wasn't complaining to her PD. To your question: do I think it is fair? Yes. It is completely fair that she be expected to work pursuant to the terms of her employment and not receive an accommodation for her religious practice. She was denied nothing to which she was entitled. The fact that other people (the Orthodox Jews) get something to which they are not legally entitled but which is granted to them as a courtesy does not mean that something unfair happened to your friend. It means that a grace happened for the Orthodox Jews. A grace that your friend didn't receive--and to which none of them were entitled. The denial of a grace does not mean that something is unfair.

[L.Jane]

It sucks, but it is how medicine works. J gets one week off every trimester and ever year we have to request off for one of the high holy days and for pesach so that we know he will get to at least observe some holidays. One year he didn't get either high holyday off because someone higher ranking then him asked for those weeks because they had some event to go to. Its how it goes. He is so tired of not actually getting to have true vacation weeks because we have to use them so that he can be observant. He always offers to work xmas and any other religious holiday we don't celebrate. I am still waiting for someone to return the favor.

[MrsK]

In my experience, as a BigLaw attorney and even as a law student, we worked nearly every weekend. My collegues who observed Sabbath, worked longer hours the rest of the week - usually much longer hours the other 6 days I so they could take their Sabbath. They usually buried the rest of us with their billable hours worked and earned their Sabbath (and, by Sabbath, I'm not exclusively referring to the Jewish Sabbath). It was very uncommon that someone requesting that type of accomidation wasn't making up for the time somewhere.

Ultimately, it sucks that everyone's requested time off - regardless of the reason for the request - cannot be granted. I've had my vacation requests denied and I've been called back to work when I was on vacation. It happens.

FWIW, in DrK's program, Muslims outnumber Christians. Everyone fights to work on Christmas and Easter.

[niener]

Ok, weeding through all the life isn't fair/medicine isn't fair/you should be grateful you get more than one day off a month in residency junk, here's my thoughts:

No, it's not fair, and if I were her I'd be at least a little pissed. I'm not saying there's anything she can or should do about it but I think angry feelings are more than justified. Two things would bug me about this situation. First, this whole thing stinks of placing one religion's importance higher than another (which is well within their rights as a private employer, I get that), and speaking as someone with no religion that rubs me the very wrong way. And second, it would seem that their request for every Saturday off would be much more difficult to meet than her request for one day off. I'm assuming those Orthodox Jewish residents worked it out prior to employment that they didn't have to work on Saturdays and I think that's really great that they were willing to accommodate those requests because they most certainly didn't have to. But, since they were so extraordinarily accommodating for those residents I think it's kind of BS that they couldn't be accommodating for her in this one instance (again I know residency is full of BS, etc etc). The only thing I can think is that perhaps a lot of people asked for Easter off and she just drew the short stick. If that's the case, that negates both of my reasons and I wouldn't think the situation unfair, only sucky for her.

Now as far as the overall question of should anyone get a pass for religion, I don't have a problem with that so long as it doesn't put an undue burden on the rest of the residents and the average amount of hours everyone puts in stays the same.

[niener]

And atheists should get Thanksgiving off! We ask for so little.

I'm petitioning for Halloween! It's a heathen holiday anyway, right?

[alison]

It does put a burden on everyone else. No one wants to be on call on a Saturday to Sunday, because you don't get any post call time off in addition to the time spent at work. You just get the rest of Sunday off.

My dh and his co-chiefs specifically introduced the 12-hour call shifts on weekends so that Sabbath-oberving resident had to work as soon as that sun went down on Saturday. And they did a call tally, that was published so everyone could see how many calls and how many holidays everyone was taking. Sabbath-observing resident got all secular holidays and all Christian ones, and in return got most of his. It worked out well.

[weeniegeniewife]

And atheists should get Thanksgiving off! We ask for so little.

[weeniegeniewife]

I'm petitioning for Halloween! It's a heathen holiday anyway, right?

Here here! Halloween is my absolute favorite holiday.

[Vanquisher]

It does put a burden on everyone else. No one wants to be on call on a Saturday to Sunday, because you don't get any post call time off in addition to the time spent at work. You just get the rest of Sunday off.

My dh and his co-chiefs specifically introduced the 12-hour call shifts on weekends so that Sabbath-oberving resident had to work as soon as that sun went down on Saturday. And they did a call tally, that was published so everyone could see how many calls and how many holidays everyone was taking. Sabbath-observing resident got all secular holidays and all Christian ones, and in return got most of his. It worked out well.

I agree that most of the time it does put an unfair burden on everyone else. I just don't feel like anyone should get special treatment or time off for religious observance. I feel if you can't handle it the way everyone else has to, don't do it.

[Vanquisher]

Oh and TS, I can see why your friend would bitch. It gets old to see special treatment and not get the one day that is important to you.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

I agree that most of the time it does put an unfair burden on everyone else. I just don't feel like anyone should get special treatment or time off for religious observance. I feel if you can't handle it the way everyone else has to, don't do it.

That was sort of my feeling. Doing it for some and not others doesn't really work in my opinion. But I put it in debates to get a lot of different perspectives!!

[alison]

Yup, in German it's called getting one piece of sausage more than everyone else "Extrawurst."

You hope that karma comes and evens everything out at some point.

[HouseofWool]

That was sort of my feeling. Doing it for some and not others doesn't really work in my opinion. But I put it in debates to get a lot of different perspectives!!

I think that is what would bother me the most.

[ladymoreta]

Yup, in German it's called getting one piece of sausage more than everyone else "Extrawurst."

This made me lol!

Yeah, I would also be annoyed if I were her. I know it's residency, and you're pretty much supposed to accept the "fact" that you're the scum of the earth and unworthy of the smallest favors, and that by acknowledging your disappointment at missing something you were hoping for, you're showing weakness and therefore shouldn't have become a doctor, but really... Really? I feel bad for her. There are so few good things in training. We all have memories of that one time that we were looking forward to that got crushed by the program, and this is hers. We'll all remember ours, whether we keep them secret to avoid sounding whiny or brag about them as a show of bravado. Sending her e-hugs. Residency sucks.

[BonBon]

*coming late to the party*

This doesn't sit well with me. I don't give a crap how medicine is unfair, if people don't like it they should leave, etc etc. Let's face it: in residency, that's really not an option. We all know it's going to be unfair, and we all know that you're pretty much hamstrung.

That said...anyone who cannot work specific days shouldn't be in medicine. Period. Medicine is 24/7/365, and if you can't be available to shoulder your part of the load, then find something else to do with your life. There are plenty of options that don't have you working on Saturdays. And THAT said...if a program is bending over backwards to give a certain population every freaking Saturday off for religious reasons, then they need to make those people work the occasional Sunday (or other day) to accomodate others' religious holidays. It's called working together, being a team, being decent human beings to one another...hell, if you're in medicine, that's partially the point of doing it, right??