Religious Observances During Residency

[MrsK]

They do. In my experience, people observing a weekly Sabbath every Saturday work every Sunday. Likewise, those observing a Sunday sabbath work lots of Saturdays.

In this case, there were probably lots more requests for Easter off than there would have been for Yom Kippur. It's a lot harder to get coverage if everyone requests the same day off. I'm not saying it doesn't suck. It does. But I've had to use my sick days and vacation time, make up work, and justify my absence to teachers and collegues for taking off Jewish high holidays since I was in grade school while it's a foregone conclusion that the whole country is closed on Easter and it's a free-from-work holiday.

Also, there is a misunderstanding here about how the truly Orthodox Jews observe Sabbath. There are prohibitions against driving, cooking, using electricity, carrying money - some even pre-tear their toilet paper. And it's a day of intense study and prayer. It's not simply a free day. People who engage in that level of religious worship make a lot of accomidations in every aspect of their life every single day to commit to that level of observance.

[niener]

I understand that they really can't work on Saturday, but because of those extreme limitations there are certain things that just won't be available for them. That's probably why all these people are in IM. Can you imagine a surgical resident asking for every Saturday off? The PD would go into a hysterical fit. It just wouldn't be possible to accommodate that at most programs.

[MrsK]

A lot of things aren't available to them. I live in a town where you can't even go to a garage sale on Sunday. If I observed a strict Saturday sabbath, my family would never go anywhere.

A lot of people have extreme limitations and have to make accomidations in their lives because of them. Mountain climbing is probably not a preferred sport among quadraplegics but our society attempts to ne inclusive and make most professions and public places accessable. If a reasonable accomidation is possible and the person requesting the accomidation is pulling their weight/making up time, I don't think it is reasonable to bar an entire class of people from a profession. While we all say that medicine is 24/7/365, it's not. But one's ethnicity and religion truly is 24/7/365.

I'm not saying that one group's religion is more deserving of accomidation than others. I'm saying that we should attempt to be sensitive to everyone's needs and that equal does not always mean the same. In the OP's instance, I truly think this was a matter of just too many people requesting the same holiday and she got out ranked or unlucky. I do not think it was deliberate discrimination and I do not think the Orthodox Jewish Sabbath argument is relevant or appropriate. Frankly, I've been relatively quiet but I think this thread has been tip-toeing over thin ice and it's juvenile to point to someone else's accomidation and say "not fair" (or, worse "your fault I don't get mine") when there is no way of knowing all the circumstances surrounding that accomidation. s.

[Pollyanna]

Exactly what MrsK said. And I truly believe those that are faithly practicing their faith DO make up the time and make sure they are not taken advantage of the situation (which I think I mentioned in my first post). And I wouldn't exclude or suggest that someone should not practice medicine because of their faith.

[diggitydot]

Exactly what MrsK said. And I truly believe those that are faithly practicing their faith DO make up the time and make sure they are not taken advantage of the situation...

That has been our experience as well. DH's program has several very devout Catholics and Mormons and they're all pretty conscientious about making up any time they take for religious reasons. They don't take much, though.

[alison]

That was not our experience during residency. Working a 24-hour shift on a Saturday is different than that of a Sunday. If you work the Sat shift, you don't have a day off. Those that work the Sunday shift, are off-duty when they're post call on Monday and of course have Saturday off. TBH, I see your point that those who are practicing their faith are not off at Fantasy Land making a day of it. What I still don't agree with is that someone's religion should have an impact on others' time, no matter how they choose to spend it.

I do see that programs are becoming more human/humane, and that is a good thing!

[MrsK]

Religious practices in this country have a very significant impact on how everyone spends their time. I could expend energy being pissed off because I have to wait while the police direct traffic outside the church every Sunday or complaining that I can't go to Chic-fil-A on Sunday not to mention fume over others' religions impacting my choice to use birth control or a mirad of issues. (I'm trying to stay away from larger regious issues because I don't want to incite a riot so please don't attack me for citing trivial examples. I'm sure everyone can think of examples of greater personal impact.) I choose accept that in order to enjoy the benefits of our society, I make accomidations for others.,

[alison]

I honestly don't care what religion it is. If it's freaking Boat Day, the drawbridges are held up here, and I can't get around. That's annoying, too. . If I choose not to participate, then why is there an impact on my life?

You (general you) can go on and on about these things, yet if you want to live in a society, it's both give and take. I see that.

[mommax3]

I have been reading this thread with interest, but have little to add because it is so far outside my experience. In residency, there were no "days" off as far as something you could request. It was a week or nothing. Many people at my church (who saw me but didn't know me well) assumed I was a single mom during those years. That was just residency....it was hard-core 100+ hours a week, but it was that way for everyone, and many faiths were represented in the program. Even now, special days (religious or not) can only sometimes be accommodated by DH's schedule....and he is the one who makes it! I'm sure this is somewhat specialty specific....but in private practice OB/Gyn, if you want to stay afloat, you've got to be ready to work. Residency was good training for real life in that regard (and many others) and with the number of practices DH and I have seen fold over the past 7 years, we often wonder if the work hour restrictions leave residents in some specialties ill-prepared for the realities of life as an attending.

[niener]

... or complaining that I can't go to Chic-fil-A on Sunday

For some reason I only get Chick-fil-A cravings on Sundays. I swear my subconscious does it just to piss me off.

I'm used to being inconvenienced by other religions, especially around Christmas, but it's really not a big deal. I guess the issue is how much is too much and everyone is going to draw that line in a different place. Saying Orthodox Jews shouldn't practice medicine is going to the extreme IMO. I'm quite sure there are plenty of fields of medicine in which having every Saturday off really isn't a big deal and all reasonable efforts should be made to allow them to practice medicine, but really the only person/entity whose definition of "reasonable efforts" matters in this instance is the PD/hospital running the program.

[Pollyanna]

Residency was good training for real life in that regard (and many others) and with the number of practices DH and I have seen fold over the past 7 years, we often wonder if the work hour restrictions leave residents in some specialties ill-prepared for the realities of life as an attending.

Off topic but I think this is sooo true, especially in OB. Women get frustrated that they can't VBAC but one of the reasons so many practices won't do it is because it requires the physician to be in the hospital during labor. Lots of the new trainees don't want that lifestyle (especially women). People don't realize the impact some of these new regulations end up having on patients downstream, and on medicine as a whole.

[L.Jane]

For some reason I only get Chick-fil-A cravings on Sundays. I swear my subconscious does it just to piss me off.

You and my DH. I swear when we lived in Dallas (I have no idea where a Chick-fil-A is here) I lived down the street from one, but somehow he would only think about going to one on a Sunday. I found it hilarious.

Sorry... Totally off topic there...

[SoonerTexan]

We also crave Chick Fil A on Sunday, though it is sounding mighty tasty now.

[ladymoreta]

Have you guys tried their new chocolate chip cookies? OMG, they'll change your life!

[Vanquisher]

We seem to crave Chick-Fil-A on Sundays too.

Back to the religion influencing residency discussion. Residents getting preferential treatment, and that's what it is, for any reason is patent bullshit. I'm sorry, one weekend day off every week? If you can't work on any given day, then, no, you shouldn't be in medicine. Period. Yes, I am going there. When someone goes into labor, cardiac arrest, or breaks a hip, they don't ask if it is your day off. This is not that kind of job. It's just not. We had a few Orthodox Jewish medical students in dh's class and it sucked. Completely. If I learned we were on the same rotation as one of them, it meant we NEVER got a saturday off or a Friday night. What day could we look forward to having off every week? None. That's right.

It's irrelevant to me what is done in that time - prayer, or study, or skinny dipping with pineapple upside down cake on your head; it all means that someone has to pick up the slack, and I don't care how much they work the rest of the week, it's a weekend that gets screwed for everyone else.

Furthermore, as a resident dh worked 120+ hour weeks. I would have killed for a day off a week. Literally. And a weekend to boot? Seriously? Now, as an attending 80-100 is still not uncommon. So, yes, if you can't do the work, then you don't get to be a doc. Just like if someone was a quadraplegic with an IQ of 60, the ADA says you have to make reasonable accomodations. Does that mean they can be a doc too? No, it doesn't. Cause they can't do the work, just as someone who wants a day off a week (in my opinion this is a choice to follow a religion) should not get a free pass. You can work Saturdays, too, buddy or get out.