Religion in public schools

[Momo]

I think what Ladybug said is all fine & well for OLDER students, say HS or perhaps middle school.

[Chrisada]

Exactly Momo. We are talking about elementary kids here. Big difference.

[Ladybug]

I think what Ladybug said is all fine & well for OLDER students, say HS or perhaps middle school.

Or maybe adulthood or nursing home for some people.

[Ladybug]

Exactly Momo. We are talking about elementary kids here. Big difference.

It's been successful in our community, but parents are also highly invested in creating a community unlike public schools where I think there is more of a sense of "you owe me "this"".

[alison]

I'm not religious and to be honest, it doesn't bother me much... It's part of living in western civilization. The dominant religions will be covered in school, and it's just part of life. You don't have to believe what it is you're saying and doing. It's entertainment and a way for the class to come together.

[Phoebe]

My mom (the elem. music teacher) chooses music curriculum for the "holiday" concert each year that is globally-minded. Songs about Diwali, LP, Ramadan, Hanukkah, and Christmas are featured.
She teaches at a public school, and had never put on a nativity scene, or had a "Christmas concert."

My daughters kindergarten class learns bout holidays celebrated like the ones above. They gloss over traditions topped off by a field trip to our Children's museum which has exhibits about everything they have studied.

I like it because I learn something, too.

[GrayMatterWife]

BTW GMW is it unconstitutional for a teacher or school, to possibly have a minor sing a song that is considered blasphemous, to said child's religion?? Just curious about that?

What do you mean by "have"? Do you mean "require to"?

If the school absolutely requires (with no possibility of accommodation) that your child sing "Silent Night" and you believe that singing that song violates your freedom to practice your faith, then there could be some First Amendment issues, yes. If you are having this problem, my suggestion is that you speak with the teacher first (I'd bring a friend or your husband, as a second witness to the conversation), in a very non-confrontational way. Explain politely but firmly (but non-apologetically) that your child cannot sing this song due to the tenants of your faith, and ask what "reasonable accommodation" could be made so that your child can complete the assignment without suffering a grade mark-down. If the child's participation in the song is not graded, then there is no issue. Just don't send your kid to the performance assembly or whatnot. If it is part of the grade, and the teacher refuses to offer a reasonable accommodation, ask her to be clear: "OK, you are advising me that, regardless of our sincerely held religious beliefs, my child must sing a song that we believe is blasphemous to sing?" and wait for confirmation. Then calmly explain that this is a serious issue for you. You might want to offer an analogy: "As part of my faith, we maintain that Allah is the One God and Mohammed is His Prophet. Obviously, that is not a belief held by Christians, and it would be outrageous to require the non-Muslim students to make that statement. For us, singing about the divinity of Christ is the same statement of a belief that we do not believe is true. It is disrespectful both to us and to Christians to compel us to say that when we do not believe it." If you can't make progress, advise that you will need to speak with the department head or principal (or whoever is next up the chain). Then, make an appointment to do that. If you take it to the principal level, they will cave. Especially since your husband is a doctor and they assume you have the money to sue them.

Or...just keep your kid out of school that day due to "illness" and have your hubbie write a note. Then go have a fun day and spare yourself the headache.

[GrayMatterWife]

Simply not talking about religon in any context (art, history, politics) makes it appear unapproachable, insurmountable.

Religion, whether you practice one or not, is important to understand in terms of human history and culture. It should be taught in those contexts. But I hate this Winter Wonderland stuff, personally. Why are we "celebrating" winter? Essentially, because we are so afraid of acknowledging religious differences that we substitute a meaningless, superficial, silly topic to "celebrate." I would be perfectly happy with not phoney-ing up a celebration and just having the kids take their winter final exams, having a post-exam classroom party as a send-off, then heading home for the winter break.

[SuzySunshine]

My school was sued by the ACLU when I was in high school! My small town of 3000 people, about 50 in each class K-12 has a VERY old tradition, I don't even know how old, of a very traditional/Christian Christmas program. All grades participate, I think from grades 2 - 8 and high school music classes make up the choir, rehearsal was held during school, high schoolers tried out for parts like Mary, Joseph, Gabriel, King Herrod, etc., smaller school kids were angels, songs included Little Drummer boy, Oh Holy Night, etc. Participation was not optional unless you were in high school and not in music or band or drama.

It was a beautiful production and a great sense of pride in my small town. Granted we had one african american family in the whole school, I know of no jewish families, I only point this out to show the diversity of the town was (and still is) VERY small. I don't even remember the religion of the family that called the ACLU, they had a son in my sister's class and a daughter in mine. The ACLU had it shut down a year or two after I graduated. The town was DEVASTATED!

The pageant continues 18 years after I have graduated by technically not being sponsored by the school anymore. The local Lions Club pays $1 to rent the gym for each rehearsal and the actual performance, all of which are done on non-school time. Participation is totally voluntary and as I understand it participation is still very high. There is more diversity in town though I don't know enough to say what the diversity is now.

So yes, I think it is a fine line for public schools. I was shocked (in a good way) when A came home from her first day of preschool reciting the pledge of allegiance, but my kids go to the catholic schools so they get to do some things that aren't PC in the public schools.

[niener]

I meant to add this a while ago but forgot. When I was a kid and we had to say the pledge of allegiance or sing a Christmas song, I just skipped the part I didn't feel comfortable saying. As in, I just stood there and stopped moving my lips. Then I'd jump back in when that part was over. I'm pretty sure no one ever noticed. That was how my 9 year old, extremely non-confrontational self dealt with it .

[L.Jane]

I meant to add this a while ago but forgot. When I was a kid and we had to say the pledge of allegiance or sing a Christmas song, I just skipped the part I didn't feel comfortable saying. As in, I just stood there and stopped moving my lips. Then I'd jump back in when that part was over. I'm pretty sure no one ever noticed. That was how my 9 year old, extremely non-confrontational self dealt with it .

I did this too.

[Pollyanna]

I completely agree with Rapunzel. We spend so much time being "offended" these days we are ending up with a very bland culture. Growing up in public school we learned about all sorts of holidays and cultures. If a student was in the minority their mama would come in and teach us their beliefs. We'd learn dances, songs, etc. I don't remember anyone being offended by that and I think it made my education experience far more rich than the "winter celebrations" of today. Heck, even in Catholic high school we spent an entire semester learning about different faiths and practices.
I don't know, I guess it's in my nature just not to be easily offended and I like my children to have to defend their faith and other beliefs. How else can they ever learn to own it? Last year dd10 was one of only two children in her class that practiced any faith at all. She got all sorts of crap from kids all the time. While I felt bad for her I considered it part of her education in life and faith.
I was challenged all the time in school by teachers on political issues. We went to school one year when the teachers were striking for more than a week. You better believe the teachers remembered that we "crossed the picket line" (that was my 4th grade introduction to unions and the NEA). I was told I was evil by teachers for supporting Regan. I talked about the issues with my folks, learned to understand and defend my position and never took what my teachers said personally.
I'm sure I stand in the minority here (surprise surprise) but I say, "bring it on". Stop worrying about offending and start teaching. Lets talk about all religions and non religions. Should teachers evangelize? No, but some will on both religious and political beliefs. Annoying yes but what a great learning opportunity for our children. Political correctness is not about creating a more open society it's about shutting everyone up. I'm just not interested in everyone being the same, I'm not even interested in teachers supporting my child's belief system. It would be nice but it's just not reality. Even in the Catholic high school our dd graduated from she regularly said, "it's really hard to be a Catholic at this school". So even being at a school of your own faith does not mean your children will not have to fight for their beliefs.

[diggitydot]

"Political correctness" isn't about shutting anyone up. It's about realizing that there are other perspectives that can vary drastically from your own and being cognizant of how those with other perspectives are likely to interpret the same situation.

[Momo]

Would I have a problem with that child pledging their faith in Mohammed?

I would have a huge problem w/ this. This is forbidden in Islam. Muslims are to only believe that he was a messenger, the seal of the prophets of Allah (proper Arabic word for the same "Almighty" that Jews & Christians recognize.) The reason nobody is to "pledge faith in Mohammed" is because Islam was not to become what Christianity became: believers ascribing divinity to Jesus. Jesus is the messiah in Islam, and one of the most important messengers/prophets but there is no divinity ascribed to him or ANY person whoever walked this earth, therefore no pledges to Mohammed PBUH. I just wanted to clarify that because i would hate for anyone to think that that sort of pledge/requirement would even occur in an Islamic school!

I don't know, I guess it's in my nature just not to be easily offended and I like my children to have to defend their faith and other beliefs. How else can they ever learn to own it? Last year dd10 was one of only two children in her class that practiced any faith at all. She got all sorts of crap from kids all the time. While I felt bad for her I considered it part of her education in life and faith.

oh believe me we own it! As I stated I have spoken to a class before. There is a huge elephant in this conversation & that is as Muslims, we have to tread lightly because of the anti-Islamic bigotry of all those folks not like you.

Antepli likens the current climate to McCarthyism. Left unchecked, he says, anti-Muslim fervor, like racism and anti-Semitism, has the potential to evolve into something dangerous.

If parents truly were as Kumbyah as you guys seem to be, then we could probably have regular lessons/convocations regarding religions & the conscience choice of having no religious faith, that could carefully crafted, for the age appropriate audiences w/great care as to avoid coming off as evangelizing/proselytizing/promoting. Obviously adults need to know their faith and others very well before they attempt to teach. This would avoid a lot of problems. Let's face it, most peeps are A OK w/knowing all about their faith and very little about others, therefore folks in this category really shouldn't teach about other faiths unless they are on a panel. I consider Rapunzel to be very knowledgeable but heck look at the innocent (but way off) comment she made about pledging faith to Mohammed PBUH.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

I would not have a problem with my child playing a Muslim character in a play, I would have a problem with them being asked to sing about the divinity of Allah. I respect Islam but it is not our religion and I think singing a worship song (as that hymn was written) would not be ok with me.

And for the record, I feel this way about all other religions, not just Islam. I have great respect for people of other faiths but I will not worship (even if it's just for a performance) another divinity. I don't even chant the Oms in yoga because my understanding (and this could be off) is that it is a somewhat worshipful act and I want to be respectful of my own faith and others and not take actions which I do not believe in.

I'm with you Momo, I would ask that my child be excused with reasonable accommodation.