Religion in public schools

[Momo]

I would have a problem with them being asked to sing about the divinity of Allah.

you probably already do! Arab Christians in the Middle east use the word "Allah" instead of the word "God."which of course is a word English speaking Christians use.
I think your sentence would make more sense if said: "I would have a problem with them being asked to sing about the divinity of Thor."
What Christians know &call "God the Father" or "The Creator" is what Muslimsand Arab Christians call Allah. Allah is the same God I worshiped as a former Christian. Trust me I have never abandoned my belief in God just because I now use the word Allah when I pray.
I just recognize Christ as my messiah, not part of God or God. Anyway sorry for the hijack. I just want to clear things up like this. BTW I learned of this as a Christian Student at a Catholic University. I also had this in my classes at IU when I transferred there. Quite frankly I am so glad I did study religions in college. Too many folks tend to discount what I say because they just assume I became Muslim when I married DH and that I just adopted whatever he told me...riiiight. No way!
I always make it clear, DH wanted to marry ME because I was already Muslim...and a not so typical one at that!

[spotty_dog]

Too many folks tend to discount what I say because they just assume I became Muslim when I married DH and that I just adopted whatever he told me...riiiight. No way!

Knowing you,

I've wondered about the timeline and relationship between you meeting DH and converting, but it definitely did not enter my mind to think that you changed your religion because he said to!

[MrsK]

I haven't been following this thread so I'm just jumping at the risk of putting my foot in my mouth. I was asked to do a presentation once about the law surrounding religion in public places -- like the navity scene on the Capitol steps. There is a case called Lemon that basically says that it's okay provided that the religious message is dilluted somehow. So, the navity scene is okay provided that there is a menorah, a Christmas tree, and Santa jumping over it with eight tiny raindeer as two turtledoves look on.

[Ladybug]

Because you know we've gone there... I miss the old debates! I have to run and do baths, but will share my thoughts later. This is coming from a place of love and (apparently) common experience.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/0...vangelizing-2/

[lovelight]

So yes, I think it is a fine line for public schools. I was shocked (in a good way) when A came home from her first day of preschool reciting the pledge of allegiance, but my kids go to the catholic schools so they get to do some things that aren't PC in the public schools.

Just for the record, both districts (public schools) I've been in still say the pledge every day...

[GreyhoundsRUs]

Just for the record, both districts (public schools) I've been in still say the pledge every day...

The last Catholic school I taught in didn't I'll have to send the principal a text and see why not (the school only started 15 years ago).

[MrsK]

I went to an orthodox Jewish school until 3rd grade. When I transfered to a more secular Jewish school, they said the pledge of allegience. I didn't know the pledge but was lucky to have a stars and stripes pencil box that had it printed on the inside of the lid. Every morning I'd just make sure my pencil box was open on my desk so I could read along. I really just lucked out on that one because my parents had no idea that I did not know it.

[Liisi]

I was thinking, this is a tricky issue for childcare providers, too. I was a nanny for several years, working with families of many different religions as well as athiests. I tried to respect each family's religion or athiesm - e.g. if the children liked being a sung a particular song at bedtime, I'd learn it and sing it to them, even if it involved religious stuff I was unfamiliar with or personally disagreed with, which I could comfortably do because I was raised Unitarian Universalist. But sometimes I wasn't sure what the family's religious beliefs were, and thus didn't know what to say or not say in certain conversations. Once, when I was driving a 5-year-old boy home from school, he piped up from the backseat as he was looking out the window, "Who made that boat?" I said, "A boat-maker." He asked, "Who made the boat-maker?" I said, "The boat-maker's mom and dad." He asked, "Who made the boat-makers' mom and dad?"" This little boy wasn't asking me questions because he didn't know the answers - he was going all Aristotle on me, and eventually his questions led to, what was the boat made of, where did the wood come from, where did the tree come from, and "Who made the seed that grew into a tree?" I went, "Um, uh..." for a minute until I cautiously replied, "Some people...would say that God did." The boy gleefully went, "DING DING DING YOU ARE CORRECT!" and then practically went into a sermon about how "we are all just one little branch of God's plant," and something about big light. I have no idea what religion his family practiced, if any, or where he got all of those thoughts, and I just sat back and listened! When we pulled into his driveway, he didn't even unbuckle his seatbelt - he just sat there gazing out the window at the beauty of the trees and woods and telling me something about how it's all just a shadow of God.

And then, with another little boy, who was about 4... every day on the way to preschool, we drove by a church with a big nativity scene in the front. He would always say, "Look at that!" so I cautiously replied, "Yes, look at that! A baby... a camel...", etc., not knowing what his family believed or celebrated. Then one day, we're passing the nativity scene and I'm again saying, "Oh, look at the baby..." and he announced, "Liisi, I know that baby's name. It's Jesus!" It was very cute. And it's just one example of how I, over the years of nannying, had learned to be so cautious with religion, and had learned to follow the children's lead. One time, a 7-year-old I was with overheard people talking and asked me, "Who's Jesus?" I didn't at all feel qualified to answer the question, and I don't remember what I said - but I mostly told her to ask her mom!

[alison]

Dh was raised Catholic and I'm atheist. When we met, it baffled his mind that I didn't believe in any sort of god and had no clue (and didn't care) what happened to me when I died. We are raising dd without a religion, are only looking into secular private schools, and celebrate holidays only in terms of their cultural relevance in Germany. I see religion as one big brainwashing, but on the other hand, I don't tell dd that there is no God, because that is also a form of brainwashing, too.

[Chrisada]

I tell my boys that no one knows whether or not there is a god and that no one knows what happens when you die. My children are really fascinated by death since my father died. I don't want it to be something that scares them but I'm also not going to sell them a story about a heaven in the sky.

[PrincessFiona]

My experience working in the preschool/Kindergarten environment is that kids talk about this stuff with each other. I have heard kids talk about being "made by God" or "God is on the clouds" without any prompting or discussion of religion.

As far as singing music associated with religion? We always sang songs growing up that represented various religions for the holiday program ... it was festive and fun.

I think it's totally appropriate to hear holiday-type songs from around the world and different religious faiths.

Kris

[oceanchild]

So, I spent most of yesterday in my mom's (public) elementary music classroom. Their district has an "approved" list of religious Christmas songs. The ones that are allowed are said to have historical or cultural significance (Silent Night makes the cut). My mom chooses to do only secular Christmas music, though, except with her elective choir. They usually throw in a Hanukkah song too. Her Christmas program is about Elfis the Elf Impersonator.

[Momo]

So, I spent most of yesterday in my mom's (public) elementary music classroom. Their district has an "approved" list of religious Christmas songs. The ones that are allowed are said to have historical or cultural significance (Silent Night makes the cut). My mom chooses to do only secular Christmas music, though, except with her elective choir. They usually throw in a Hanukkah song too. Her Christmas program is about Elfis the Elf Impersonator.

I don't doubt for one minute that some of the religious songs are culturally significant, my problem is that these are young/little kids that don't often want to speak up or make a stink, but yet may know(as in the case of mine) that there are just certain things you shouldn't utter according to our faith! I mean lets face it, the most common consideration, when it comes to diversity seems to be Jewish & Chriastain! Really, it's 2012 folks not 1950!!!??? J, I think your mom is wise!

[spotty_dog]

I mean lets face it, the most common consideration, when it comes to diversity seems to be Jewish & Chriastain! Really, it's 2012 folks not 1950!!!???

Yes, my objections would be that A) the line between sharing and indoctrination is blurred when we're talking about kindergarteners, and B) while it would be nice to include every aspect of every single world cultural and religious tradition from Albania to Zimbabwe in every single December program, that's patently impossible. Taking a Christmas program and tossing in Hanukkah and Kwanzaa doesn't make a diverse exposure to culture!

For example, my son picked a Hanukkah book on his own at random from the library a few weeks ago, "Herschel and the Hanukkah Goblins." It was a fun story and we got to talk quite a lot about what is Hanukkah, what is a miracle, why and how the holiday is celebrated, why latkes and candles are part of the tradition, etc. But then this week my son came home and told me, "The last day of Hanukkah is ALWAYS on Christmas because that's when you get the biggest presents. Hanukkah is how some families celebrate Christmas." After some gentle prodding (and a demonstration on the calendar that the eight days are NOWHERE near the 25th this year) I determined that the kindergarten teacher had read the class a story that took place in the voice of a Jewish American child who basically was proud of their family's traditions and didn't feel slighted for not celebrating Christmas because of XYZ. Now, I love the teacher (I mean really, she's a dear friend) but I think that message dilutes everything involved: Hanukkah, secular Christmas, and religious Christmas. Before he heard that story my son wouldn't have even dreamed of pitying or criticizing a friend for not celebrating Christmas for any reason, because our message at home is that this is one special time to show our family we love them, but other people find other times to do that.

So, Christmas songs? I have been singing Silent Night and O Come All Ye Faithful around the house, and teaching my son about why Jesus is part of Christian Christmas, but I don't think I want my son being made to memorize religiously-based song lyrics until he's at least 9-10 and able to make some critical evaluations of his own. Note how most of us who choose not to say "under God" during the pledge made that choice when we were about 9? The trivium of classical education places the "logic stage", when children develop this ability to think logically and analytically, at about fifth grade. This is when I'd be more comfortable having my children get a wider exposure to charged subjects like this.