Dear Prudence Advice to Female Ped Resident on Staff Relations

[GreyhoundsRUs]

I disagree. I see nothing wrong with being friends with staff. Some of our favorite people are nursing and/or other support peeps and we socialize(d) with them frequently. Our residency peeps (whether they were docs, spouses, nurses, techs, or whatever) fucking rocked.

I think there is a fine line once you're an attending. You need to be able to fire people, too

Back to the OP - I agree with CP. Whiny resident needs to suck it up, realize that the nursing staff probably knows more about the workings of the hospital than an intern, and just focus on being a doctor. What resident has time to write in about their problems, anyway??

[Thirteen]

If it's truly an issue with vindictive people? Don't feed the lions. Period.

If the doctor is weak, I don't know. Seasoned, veteran nurses can smell your fear. Truth.They may not actually be mean or rude - her perception of the interactions/relationship could be incorrect due to projection of low self-esteem, etc.


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[corn poffi]

Yeah...I might be a lowly admin staff member, but some of my best friends are residents.

And I've definitely hung out with faculty in a casual setting (unrelated to R), and I don't think any lines were "blurred". I don't think that people should try to make everybody they work with their bestie, but I don't think that hanging out with work people is a cardinal sin.

[MrsK]

I didn't mean to sound like a snob. Over time, I developed genuine friendships with some of my paralegals and secretaries. I've kept in touch with many of them since our firm closed, we are FB friends, and I visit them when I'm in town. But I just don't feel compelled to dress up as a bellydancer with them for the group costume contest at the firm's halloween party or to be the one to coordinate office baby showers and the like. If my secretary is getting a divorce, she can use my office to make a private call to her lawyer but I don't want to hear all the gorey details of the latest fight with her ex. Many of the women with whom I worked felt like they had to do that but the men never did. I did bake brownis, had special meals brought in, and brought in flowers for staff when they went out of their way to do exceptional work. If we closed a big deal and my staff worked late, they would know their work was appreciated and rewarded. However, I'm a professional and I'll save dressing up as a bellydancer, hosting baby showers, and crying on shoulders for after work hours.

[corn poffi]

Oh, I definitely agree with being professional while at work. I'm baffled by what many feel is appropriate work behavior. Even though I am friends with several people at work, there is no gossiping, crying etc. while at work. Out of the office is another story. But these are friends by choice. I'm not one of those people who thinks that they have to go to happy hour or share their secrets or whatever with their coworkers because they should be friends. The people I spend my time with outside of the office are people I choose to spend my time with.

I do agree that I would not hang out with somebody I directly supervise or with my assistant because I think that's weird. I wouldn't hang out with my direct supervisor either. But being friends with somebody I work with doesn't seem unprofessional to me, even if they are "higher ranking" than I am.

[GrayMatterWife]

Yeah...I might be a lowly admin staff member, but some of my best friends are residents.

And I've definitely hung out with faculty in a casual setting (unrelated to R), and I don't think any lines were "blurred". I don't think that people should try to make everybody they work with their bestie, but I don't think that hanging out with work people is a cardinal sin.

When you have to sh*tcan somebody, or give them a bad review, or demote them, or otherwise professionally discipline them, the dynamic is difficult when you're buddies. If you never want to be in hospital administration or move up that chain, then there really isn't a problem. If you want to be a chairman or a residency program director, there is little to be gained by looking like one of the gang, as versus someone with leadership potential. At least, that's what I've observed in academics. The CM, future CM, and RPDs don't socialize with residents and hospital staff. They aren't rude; they just aren't pals.

Nurses don't work for the doctors, though. However, if there is tension between nursing administration and physician staff, best you not pick sides. There is no way to win that. Stay out, stay neutral, and stay away from happy hour.

[GrayMatterWife]

I didn't mean to sound like a snob.

I don't think it's about being a snob. It's about survival. The fact is, professional women who socialize with people (men or women) who are not their workplace equivalent or similarly situated socially and professionally demote themselves in the eyes of most of their male colleagues. It's not fair, but that's the way it is. I was warned quietly several times as a law firm associate not to be to chummy with the secretaries or paralegals. I was appalled--why the hell not? I went the secretarial vo-tech route through high school (you know, the non-academic route with transcription, dictation, shorthand, typing, etc). I have all the skills to be a professional secretary (although not the practical experience). I never saw myself as particularly different than the secretaries, other than, because of life choices, I ended up with more education. One of the partners put it to me bluntly: if you see yourself as having a lot in common with the secretary, so will your bosses. I'd worked too hard to be seen as anything other than a highly qualified law associate. The best I could do was treat the secretarial staff as respectfully as I could, and tried not to abuse them. It was just like my language and my dress. I never said "whatever!" like a teenager or giggled, or wore too trendy clothes or talked about shopping or handbags or anything like that. Even worse than being seen as "just a secretary" would have been being seen as remarkably similar to the partner's space-cadet teenage daughter or mall-addicted wife.

[MrsK]

. . .. It was just like my language and my dress. I never said "whatever!" like a teenager or giggled, or wore too trendy clothes or talked about shopping or handbags or anything like that. Even worse than being seen as "just a secretary" would have been being seen as remarkably similar to the partner's space-cadet teenage daughter or mall-addicted wife.

Ohhh, I just had a flashback. I was once asked to mentor a young female associate mostly because I was the only other woman in the department. She was big, busty girl who wore her clothes very tight -- same outfits I wore but about 2 sizes too small for her very curvy body; the men in our department never knew where to look when she was in their offices and they were begging me to persuade her to invest in a more modest wardrobe. The wardrobe was the least of her problems but the most immediately obvious to the men. She was always the last to arrive at work. I'd call her to my office to assign her work and she'd tell me that she needed a smoking break first, then go to lunch for 2 hours and return with numerous shopping bags, and brag to the secretaries and receptionsists who could barely make ends meet about how she and her friend agreed to buy themselves $700 designer handbags twice a year on each of their birthdays because, "Hey, I'm 24 and I've EARNED a $700 handbag." About an hour after that, she'd get a phone call and leave in a rush to tend to some "emergency" and be gone for the remainder of the day. The partners hated her, the staff hated her, and *I* hated her for the way her behaviour reflected on those of us who worked long hours and wore beige nailpolish and serious haircuts with our navy blue suits. Here I'm taking time to mentor her and she won't even show up because she's running around the office, showing everyone pictures of herself and another dizzy lady lawyer from the bankruptcy department literally passed out drunk from the party they had for her dog's birthday the previous weekend? Arg! Women judges were always harder on women attorneys for that reason too. It totally pissed them off when they spent 30 years proving that they were to be taken seriously and then some bimbo shows up in court with her belly piercing exposed. Any "professional" who behaves that way in the workplace is asking to be ignored and ridiculed.

[GrayMatterWife]

. . . she's running around the office, showing everyone pictures of herself and another dizzy lady lawyer from the bankruptcy department literally passed out drunk from the party they had for her dog's birthday the previous weekend?

Just for the record, since many of you know this is my field of law: the dizzy lady lawyer from the bankruptcy dept who was passed out drunk at a dog's birthday part was NOT me!!

I never drink to excess at ANY pet's special occasion. Clearly, if it is between me and the animal, I should be the designated driver.

[GreyhoundsRUs]

Mwah, GMW. Clearly you should be the DD in that case

[MrsK]

LOL. The sad part is that I did not overstate a single word of that description. I assume that the peds resident in the original post does not behave like that and I've described an extreme case. Even 10% of that obnoxious behaviour reflects badly on everyone.

[scrub-jay]

Just for the record, since many of you know this is my field of law: the dizzy lady lawyer from the bankruptcy dept who was passed out drunk at a dog's birthday part was NOT me!!

I never drink to excess at ANY pet's special occasion. Clearly, if it is between me and the animal, I should be the designated driver.

Oh thank goodness you cleared that one up, I didn't know how to ask!

[PrincessFiona]

We've seen this issue too, and I don't think that brownies would be the fix. Taking extra moments for kindness/sharing ... maybe. For whatever reason, the unit dh saw this happen on the most was ICU and it seemed that female residents had a much tougher time than the guys.

That being said, nurses at our hospital can make our break you if you are a male doc or a female. When the hospital here was considering offering a contract to an outside doc who had worked here through a different system (that eventually folded), the nurses came together and pretty much informed administration they would all walk out. It was an obnoxious, arrogant, male physician. He was subsequently not hired.

Nurses can be golden ... and I think some docs under-appreciate their knowledge and training which can lead to problems. As far as the female doc/female nurse thing .... I've always said women don't rule the world because we are our own worst enemies!

[scarlett09]

LISTEN to them and RESPECT them without projecting insecurity. It may be hard to walk that line, but that is what being a professional grown-up is about.

I couldn't believe the OP: a female peds resident whining about the nurses not liking her?! Snort. Bwahahahahaha!!!! And she is going to the internets to get advice on this? Halfway through intern year? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!

Yes, women are hard on other women. But I see this as more of a generational issue, which GMW has alluded to in her posts. "Poor me, I always got my way, never learned how to interact with people in person, and there are actually people out there who don't like me. Waaaah!" Is she making any effort to be a team player or listen to and respect the staff? Probably not because she expected this to just "happen" without any effort on her part and that the respect for her would just "be there" because she was a dawkter. Shame on her, her med school, and her residency program for not illustrating the importance of building strong relationships amongst all the staff.

All types of residency are hard, but this is a peds residency. I cannot imagine that this chick would survive if she were in any of the other residencies you all are in or have experienced. She is not in the minority in her class, as peds programs are nearly all women. She needs to talk to her peers - what advice do they have? Forget talking to the chief or the head nurse. Bringing in yummies can help, but the keys to getting respect is listening and time. DH gave the nurses both, let them teach him about things, scold him on occasion, and eventually, they were eating out of the palm of his hand. Well not really, but there was a mutual respect between him and them and they were ALL trying to recruit him to their units during his senior year. And there was a difference between the way him and the other 4 guys in his class were treated by the staff. DH was adored, 1 guy was super well liked (and got chief ahead of DH, but that is another can of worms), 2 were well liked, and the last guy was a hot mess. A lot of the nurses did not like him. Why? He didn't cultivate that respect (plus it didn't help that he was dating them, sometimes 2-3 at once), often talking down to them or not pulling his weight be because he didn't like the rotation because it wasn't NICU. So in the end, there was no respect going back his way because it was never given in the first place.

[GrayMatterWife]

All types of residency are hard, but this is a peds residency. I cannot imagine that this chick would survive if she were in any of the other residencies you all are in or have experienced.

ITA. It's PEDS, for heaven's sakes. It is subspeciality that has a lot of women and attracts people, for the most part (but not all!) who are more nurturing (or, at least, more nurturing than surgeons...). I am really glad Scarlett wrote this--I was sort of afraid to. But my thought was: Honey, grow a set. Seriously. If peds residency is hurting your feelings, you are just a little to sensitive.