Public school vs. private school

[GreyhoundsRUs]

Interesting read: http://www.designmom.com/2013/09/pub...ol-in-oakland/


Wife of a PGY-4 Orthopod

[PrincessFiona]

Interesting read: http://www.designmom.com/2013/09/pub...ol-in-oakland/


Wife of a PGY-4 Orthopod

Interesting read. I went to that high school in the 10th grade. I can assure her that she is making a mistake. She brushed over the 'minor' details, like kids disrespecting teachers and talking over them during class, low test scores, etc.

Would you all be willing to take that chance on your children's educations for the sake of diversity of experiences? I did have diverse experiences, like sitting in class and watching a boy smoke a bong right there with the teacher in the classroom. I stared at him in shock because it was my first time to see anyone smoke a bong and then he threatened to beat me up and chased me through the school after class. Did that experience make me a better person? Probably not.

Those are the pieces of her story that she hasn't gotten to since she is only a couple of weeks in. I'd like to read her follow-up article...

Kris

ETA: I clearly have strong opinions on this topic, but they are based in part on my own personal experiences.

[Pollyanna]

I agree with Kris. I went to that school in Jr high. I watched daily fights that yielded blood and learned who to talk to and who to avoid contact with. Graduation was a huge deal because for a lot of my classmates they were done with school. Sure, I survived for two years but it is not a place where you are necessarily able to thrive. It was only junior high so not nearly as big a deal if it had been high school.

[WolfpackWife]

I did have diverse experiences, like sitting in class and watching a boy smoke a bong right there with the teacher in the classroom. I stared at him in shock because it was my first time to see anyone smoke a bong and then he threatened to beat me up and chased me through the school after class. Did that experience make me a better person? Probably not.

.

I've been following this thread and I've got to say...aside from the fact that this wasn't a great experience for you, that is a pretty ballsy move!

I read the initial article that started the thread and had DH read it too. I agree with most of what other posters have said - 'private' doesn't always mean best and 'public' doesn't always mean worst. My brother and I went to private schools but even if that wasn't possible the schools in our area were very good anyway. My parents just felt the private school environments would benefit us - mostly from the 'college prep' aspect. However, with all of the current (recent few years) news coming out of NC about the school districts/school board in my home town, and knowing the issues with the school board, etc...if DH and I lived there currently and had children, I'd probably opt for private school - if for no other reason than to avoid the messiness of all that.

Anyway - what struck me in the initial article was her statement that every body sending their kids to public schools would eventually improve them. I'm paraphrasing here but she said "sure your kids and grandkids may be mediocre educations, but eventually it will improve for future generations." I was sort of appalled by that - I wouldn't want to knowingly participate in the 'mediocre' education of my children. My dad did not go to college (though heowns a very successful company that he built from the ground up, with no more than a 12th grade education. Not super relevant but I think it's incredibly honorable, though my dad is very humble about it and *still* ashamed of the fact that he didn't go to college), and my mom went to a community college and got an associate's degree, so education was hugely important to them. College was all they ever wanted for my brother and I and my god, the tears my mom shed on both of our college graduation days. As such, I have also come to value education very highly and will likely encourage my kid to get the best and most advanced education they can.

I know the mentality of "but, my kid is (special/better/gifted/mine) shouldn't have to ___" can be counter productive but I would think I would feel badly about my choices if I knew "well, my kid is going to get a sub-par education, but at least in 60 years the kids at the school will get a great education!"

"She may not learn as much or be as challenged, but take a deep breath and live with that. Oh, but she’s gifted? Well, then, she’ll really be fine."

^^ I mean, really? Is that the most responsible choice for your child's education? I just personally feel that that seems like an irresponsible parenting choice and I'm surprised she put it out there like that.

"But many others go private for religious reasons, or because their kids have behavioral or learning issues, or simply because the public school in their district is not so hot. None of these are compelling reasons"

^^ Jesus, I hope she doesn't have a behaviorally or otherwise learning-challenged child. They're SOL.

[SoonerTexan]

I didn't read the article either.

DH and I come from both sides on this, though. I was in public school K-12. My parents were a mixture--a mix of public/private til 8th grade and then both public high schools. He was in private Catholic schools from K-12, as were his parents.

Our choices in schooling for our kids will mostly depend on where we live, thus I'm taking a pretty active interest in where we end up for residency! Granted, I feel like I could make up for any deficiencies our kids might experience in the elementary years in 70ish % of the schools out there. An unsafe environment would be a different story. Where I really care is high school, and to a lesser extent, middle school. I feel like that is where the rubber meets the road.

I always did best in public schools. I did a few short stints in private schools (all Christian or Catholic) and couldn't stand them. I felt stifled and enjoyed a bigger class size. I loved the opportunities I had in the last high school I went to. There is no way I would have gotten National Merit without the program our school offered. I had great teachers I still keep in touch with and took something like 9 AP classes. I could walk to the school and it was an incredible facility. Every year we had at least one kid get into the Naval Academy, and there were plenty that went to Ivy Leagues. Good teachers flocked to the school and tended to stay. The larger class size ~650 meant it was possible to "get lost in the crowd" but it almost meant that it was pretty hard for there to be a ridiculous social hierarchy. As for diversity, no there weren't a whole lot of Black or Hispanic students, but there were lots of Asians/Indians. It's worth mentioning that I went to 3 high schools because of moves. I spent 3 weeks at a school in Mississippi that was really meh, the rest of my freshman year at a smaller public school in DFW that wasn't highly ranked, and grades 10-12 at arguably one of the Top 5 high schools in the DFW area. The differences were pretty marked.

There were some downsides--sports were pretty hard to get into. There were Olympians in my swimming district. I didn't know half the people that walked across the stage when I graduated, but I ended up with the same people in most of my classes anyway, so it wasn't really a big deal.

When I met DH, he was going to a small, private Catholic school in Dallas. I had actually toured it in 8th grade (I swear, my mom had some guilt about not providing me with a formal Catholic education. She's finally given up on it, but man, she always wanted to check out the options) and said "hell no" after we passed a "Discipline Session" going on with the 8th grade boys. (genders were divided) Little did I know DH was in that room. I found out later they were total hellions. I don't think the education was bad, but it wasn't great either. When he moved to Houston, his parents were too afraid of sending him to the local public schools, so they sent him downtown to a Catholic school. He had to drive 45 minutes one way. It wasn't a great experience. The academics were better, but the school was a joke as a Catholic institution, there were drugs everywhere, the focus on sports was as bad as a public school, and the facility was horrendous (I visited it with him once and really couldn't believe how bad it was). While he was a student there, a body was found in a ditch along the school grounds--victim of a serial killer in the area. Not kidding. There were some good teachers, but many were meh. When his sister started there a few years later, shit went down in the 1st week that made them decide to pull her out. Ironically, he could have gone to an excellent public school a few minutes from his house, but his parents were too damn scared of it. When his youngest sister was diagnosed on the autism spectrum a few years later, she went to a public school near their house for a year for a special program. That changed his mom's opinion on public schools a little bit. They could offer a lot more than the private Catholic school the younger girls were attending could.

In the end, we both ended up just fine. Actually, we had pretty similar grades, AP scores, and SAT scores (we used to complete, haha!) He had to do a lot more of it on his own, though, while I had programs and teachers that provided more support.

Based on our experiences, we'll go with public schools if they are good. And by good, I mean really good. Putting out kids that rival the top private schools good. Unfortunately, that usually means paying more for a house and living further out. It's a sacrifice we're willing to make right now (and let's face it, a home's value is usually better in a good school district). Where he gets a job could really change things--I'm aware some locations are just crappy public schools all around and private is really the only way to go. If we have kids that need special programs and support a public school cant offer, I'm willing to look at private schools then, too.

Regardless, there are two big reasons we will probably avoid private schools if we can:

--The $$$. There's no getting around it, they're expensive. If I can get a similar quality education with the tax dollars we are already spending, I'm inclined to do that. I'd rather that money go towards college. Of course isn't our choice, but man, it would be nice to have the money spent on DH's crappy HS for med school. I don't see any way we could afford it during residency without outside help.

--The one big pull for me, my parents, and the in-laws is a Catholic education. I'd actually love my kids to have that at the elementary level. However, it really seems like Catholic schools fall into two camps: the really awesome academic ones that might as well not be Catholic for all they don't teach and focus on faith wise (In Dallas, this would be Jesuit and Ursuline) or the really uber Catholic ones that might not be as strong education wise. My problem with the former is, if I can get that in a public school, why spend the money? As for the latter, not all are truly bad academically, but they tend to be super small and occasionally a little more conservative than I would like. I say that as a pretty conservative Catholic. DH was pushed too much towards the priesthood at the middle/high school in Dallas. A few weeks before our wedding, we were going through the crap in his apartment and found a letter from one of the priests he met on a retreat essentially telling him he would be a priest. He was in 7th or 8th grade. Not cool. Too much pressure for a young kid. I've yet to hear of a lot of "happy medium" Catholic schools, at least in our area.

[SoonerTexan]

Also, random question for GMW about Atlanta: what was the deciding factor in ruling out City of Decatur schools? I've been checking out the school situation in some of the cities we are interested in, and Decatur schools were supposed to be a pretty awesome public option and relatively close to the hospital. What am I missing?

[diggitydot]

Public school vs. private school

After having 3 kids in 5 different districts in 3 different states, I think it's all regional. Some public schools are better and have more resources than their private counterparts. Sometimes, it's vice versa. No one can make blanket statements of what is best in all situations because all things are not equal between each district.

[WolfpackWife]

ST - I agree with your points about public v. private. My mom grew up in NJ and went to Catholic elementary schools that were awful. Mean nuns, poor education, little regard for students, oppressive, etc. Granted, she went to elem. school in a different time - this was in the late 50s/early 60s. But for a private religious school, it was nothing at all to write home about. In fact she spent several years from 1st - 3rd grades being so terrified of two nuns in particular that she would get so worked up and sick about having to go to their classrooms. Great school environment! I'm pretty sure that's also where she got some of her major guilt complexes about the whole Catholic thing as well.

My HS was the former of the two private schools you mentioned - we had impeccable facilities, wonderful (seriously wonderful) highly educated teachers, great sports programs, great academic programs, smaller class sizes (I actually knew all 221 people I graduated with by first and last name) etc. However, DH went to an excellent public HS in a different part of town - one that is consistently ranked among the best in the area. I agree that it's totally regional. Sometimes it seems like a crap shoot. Off-hand, I can think of at least three mediocre private schools in our hometown area and three great private schools. Then i think harder and can think of a few more public schools that fit the bill of both 'amazing' and 'don't even set foot in the parking lot'

[DCJenn]

I send my kid to the public school across the street from my house. (OK- two blocks away) I battle nearly every day with that school or the school system because they are so unbelievably fucked up. The ONLY reason why my kid goes to this school is because the teachers are amazing. The crap they manage to work around is stunning.

1) General Mills and Kelloggs own the public school nutrition systems. Yes, we have a salad bar through a grant but generally the kids get chocolate milk and pop-tarts (whole grain and less sugar pop tarts!) for breakfast. Lunches are prepared off site and trucked in and so are dinners. Probably one-third of the kids in the school eat all three meals at the school.

2) Any left over foods are thrown away. Yes, unopened boxes of cereal and unopened milk and OJ. Why? Because the contracts withe Big Food require it so that the foods don't end up donated to food banks or given away. Not kidding. They throw away the food in black garbage bags so no one can see what's in them.

3) There was no recess equipment until several of us in the 'hood stepped up and bought/donated stuff. I had $100 worth of hulahoops and jump ropes sent from Amazon. They removed the playground equipment because they said it was dangerous but replaced it with nothing.

4) We created a bookshare last year that is a victim of it's own success. We all buy or donate tons of kids books from pre-k-8th grade appropriate and they get to keep the books. There's a huge number of those kids who didn't have their own books until this program started. We don't even HAVE a library for the middle school kids.

5) "Health Class" is once a week- and it's watching videos about health. Funny, huh?

6) Special needs kids- whether they're GT or have learning support needs or whatever are completely left by the wayside. GT kids get pulled from class once a week for an hour. Whoo hoo.

7) They have a Christmas procession every year. Yep- Mary and Joseph traipse through the school looking for a place to have baby Jesus while the rest of the kindergarteners are either sheep or angels. Not Kidding. Yes, this IS a public school.

8) They bought a house adjacent to the school with the intention of knocking it down for more land space but apparently forgot that it's in a historic district and that would never fly with the conservationists or the historic preservation people. Sure, it's a crack-laden dump but as everyone like to point out- ALL of our houses were crack-laden dumps at some point in the not-so-distant past.

9) The Board of Trustees paid some company $20k to conduct a search for the school superintendent and found ONE possible candidate- who turned out to have nearly criminal dealings at his home district in Arizona. (Tara- did you see the follow up to that? I'll find the link- he's even worse than originally imagined)

10) The Board of Trustees president is one of the former mayors and is so slimy he slithers. I would be willing to bet he's making money off every contract the school district signs.

So, yes- it's a terribly run, horribly managed piss poor school district in the inner city.

I also feel like I have the will and the means to fight the fight for all of those other parents who are working two or three jobs just to survive. and truly, a lot of them likely don't share my priorities. Too bad, I'm fighting anyway. Every kid deserves better in this screwed up district.

J.

PS- I was the one who sent all of the possible places to advertise the school principal's job to the HR department. They're total idiots.

[Pollyanna]

No, I was wondering Jenn! It's very sad to say that im not at all surprised he came from Tucson

[ladymoreta]

We're not there yet, but I'm really hoping public school works out for us. I'm not really impressed with the private school here, so I'd likely homeschool, and I just don't think I have it in me.

What rubs me the wrong way about this article is how it makes the current public school parents sound so helpless. It sounds to me like the author wants the rich, educated people to send their kids to their school so they can magically fix things for them so they don't have to do the hard work.

[GrayMatterWife]

Also, random question for GMW about Atlanta: what was the deciding factor in ruling out City of Decatur schools? I've been checking out the school situation in some of the cities we are interested in, and Decatur schools were supposed to be a pretty awesome public option and relatively close to the hospital. What am I missing?

We don't live in the City of Decatur. We live in the City of Atlanta and are served by the Dekalb County School District. I wouldn't describe City of Decatur schools as "pretty awesome." I guess it depends on what your standard of awesomeness is. They have great websites and talk a good game, but they really aren't comparable to public schools, for example, in northern Virginia. Or, honestly, in northern Atlanta suburbs.

"Close" to the hospital is relative. You certainly couldn't walk or bike. It is definitely a drive. In NormalWorld, it would be a pretty short drive. But--and I cannot emphasize this enough--traffic in Atlanta is HORRIBLE and unpredictable. There is nowhere that you could live within the area served by City of Decatur schools that would be a realistic commute of less than 20 minutes, door-to-door, in the morning. There is a lot of traffic to the hospital in the morning; there is always construction of some sort; and you're mixed in with traffic moving downtown, and you've got to drive through several school zones. If we're talking about having to do that, you might as well move to Buckhead, which has tons of private schools and some good public schools.

It is my understanding that you can pay tuition to send your kid to the City of Decatur school, if you don't live there. We weren't interested. We are already in one of the "best" public elementary schools in Atlanta (with Atlanta being distinct from all the northern burbs, like Sandy Springs and north Buckhead). City of Decatur schools wouldn't have been an improvement. We know a lot of people whose kids go to City of Decatur schools, and they advised us not to bother. And we also know quite a few people who live in City of Decatur but send their kids to private school anyway. The City of Decatur schools generally are good (**for Georgia**) but it wouldn't be a improvement over our current public school, such that it that would warrant the cost and inconvenience. And, most of the City of Decatur people we know definitely plan to transfer their kids to private for middle and up.

Regardless of where you go in Georgia, the public schools are way behind the private school education DS was receiving St Louis. Not even close. His ENTIRE math curriculum last year was a review of what he'd done TWO years before in St. Louis. And the standards for grades are very low. DS was labeled "gifted" and got all As for absolutely no discernable reason, that I could tell. I thought a lot of his work was nowhere close to "A" level.

My advice? Don't move here if you have school-aged kids and you want to live close to the hospital. If you don't mind a commute, live in the northern suburbs and die the soul-sucking, slow and painful death of life in the Atlanta burbs, where existence is about long commutes and conspicuous consumption.

Don't move here. I can't imagine why anyone would, if they had another reasonably acceptable option. It is a horrible city.

The bright spot of moving here has been that it forced me to start homeschooling DS. There are a ton of homeschooling recourses here. Decatur has a large community of homeschoolers and I am active in a well-organized homeschooling group. The people are great, homeschooling is pretty fun, and DS's education is much better and more comprehensive.

[Ladybug]

I just read an article that NYS is the second state to tie their testing standards to the new core curriculum. 75% of our public students failed the new standards and now qualify for learning intervention. Individual data is being release mid month and schools are braced for a collective parent freak out, and they can't possibly meet the intervention demand. Art, music and all creatives are on the public chopping block. It doesn't matter have many facts you know if you can't connect them in creative, innovative ways.

[Vanquisher]

I'm a fan of public schools, and I really believe in them and that they often have so much more to offer than private schools can. That being said, we've always made sure to live I the best area we could to get top-rated schools, and picked our locations with long commutes because of the schools.

[WolfpackWife]

We don't live in the City of Decatur. We live in the City of Atlanta and are served by the Dekalb County School District. I wouldn't describe City of Decatur schools as "pretty awesome." I guess it depends on what your standard of awesomeness is. They have great websites and talk a good game, but they really aren't comparable to public schools, for example, in northern Virginia. Or, honestly, in northern Atlanta suburbs.

"Close" to the hospital is relative. You certainly couldn't walk or bike. It is definitely a drive. In NormalWorld, it would be a pretty short drive. But--and I cannot emphasize this enough--traffic in Atlanta is HORRIBLE and unpredictable. There is nowhere that you could live within the area served by City of Decatur schools that would be a realistic commute of less than 20 minutes, door-to-door, in the morning. There is a lot of traffic to the hospital in the morning; there is always construction of some sort; and you're mixed in with traffic moving downtown, and you've got to drive through several school zones. If we're talking about having to do that, you might as well move to Buckhead, which has tons of private schools and some good public schools.

It is my understanding that you can pay tuition to send your kid to the City of Decatur school, if you don't live there. We weren't interested. We are already in one of the "best" public elementary schools in Atlanta (with Atlanta being distinct from all the northern burbs, like Sandy Springs and north Buckhead). City of Decatur schools wouldn't have been an improvement. We know a lot of people whose kids go to City of Decatur schools, and they advised us not to bother. And we also know quite a few people who live in City of Decatur but send their kids to private school anyway. The City of Decatur schools generally are good (**for Georgia**) but it wouldn't be a improvement over our current public school, such that it that would warrant the cost and inconvenience. And, most of the City of Decatur people we know definitely plan to transfer their kids to private for middle and up.

Regardless of where you go in Georgia, the public schools are way behind the private school education DS was receiving St Louis. Not even close. His ENTIRE math curriculum last year was a review of what he'd done TWO years before in St. Louis. And the standards for grades are very low. DS was labeled "gifted" and got all As for absolutely no discernable reason, that I could tell. I thought a lot of his work was nowhere close to "A" level.

My advice? Don't move here if you have school-aged kids and you want to live close to the hospital. If you don't mind a commute, live in the northern suburbs and die the soul-sucking, slow and painful death of life in the Atlanta burbs, where existence is about long commutes and conspicuous consumption.

Don't move here. I can't imagine why anyone would, if they had another reasonably acceptable option. It is a horrible city.

The bright spot of moving here has been that it forced me to start homeschooling DS. There are a ton of homeschooling recourses here. Decatur has a large community of homeschoolers and I am active in a well-organized homeschooling group. The people are great, homeschooling is pretty fun, and DS's education is much better and more comprehensive.

Ugh...reading this makes me skeptical that Emory is on DH's list of IM residency programs...