Taking a knee

[PrincessFiona]

What say you?

As someone who grew up in the military who still stands for the pledge and national anthem, I'm against it. At the same time, I support the right to freedom of expression. If someone wants to take a knee, I won't watch. That's my right. I also am not allowed to make political protests at work. If I did and my employer fired me, that would be okay.


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[PrincessFiona]

Taking a knee

Terrible phone post


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[ides]

I'm for it. I don't think people should be held by gun/or job or anything really to the pledge of allegiance. I personally don't like it. I think taking a knee it's a good way to show disapproval of our ridged society that is terrible to so many. No one is hurt by it and it's making a stand.

[spotty_dog]

I've never been African-American in the United States, nor raised a black son knowing he could easily be targeted by law enforcement, even killed, through no fault of his own. So I don't really have a dog in this race per se.

But when I was in fifth grade, I thought hard about the words of the Pledge, and realized I did want to pledge my allegiance to this flag and country, but couldn't in good faith abide by the "under god" bit. So from the age of 10, I stood but didn't always put my hand over my heart. Sometimes I stand and listen to the lyrics of the anthem but don't remove my hat or sing along. Are we a country who demands physical obedience to the rites of patriotism, above the actions of loyal participation in our democracy, and equitable treatment for our citizens?

Absolutely it's your right not to watch professional athletes who don't stand loyally and put their hands on their hearts. As it's my right not to watch professional athletes who beat and rape women and earn millions of dollars and ravening fans for it. (Not that I'd follow the foosballs regardless. It's just not a thing we're in to, here in this house.) But it's definitely not the right of our government to censure citizens for peacefully displaying their dissent with the status quo. That's the whole First Amendment thing, in a nutshell.

I'm in a military community and I love our country and our service people. I love and respect our community law enforcement. But I see a deep ugly shadow over law enforcement nationwide and how it treats racial minorities. That shadow is a fact. Like climate change, you don't get to not "believe" in it, no matter how uncomfortable it is. Sometimes progress means shaking up the status quo. In this case, it means drawing media attention to the disproportionate deaths and incarceration of people of color. I respect the athletes immensely who use their celebrity to bring the spotlight to this issue, instead of just using it to get their way with women and buy fancy cars.

I understand being uncomfortable with this choice of protest. I am in the process of teaching my children to stand and remove their hats, telling them that is what good citizens do; how do I explain to them otherwise? But my discomfort is nothing to the ominous threat of incarceration and death that minority populations face. There can be exceptions to this rule.

[PrincessFiona]

Taking a knee

[MENTION=985]spotty_dog[/MENTION] I agree on most things, but also feel protesting the flag/national anthem is offensive to those who have risked their lives or died for this country. Those engaging in these protests mean to be provocative, and they are. Also, we turned off the NFL due to the culture of rape, wife beating a long time ago.

You know, I honestly don't believe you should be forced to sing the national anthem at work. I'd have all players stay inside until after it's over.


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[TulipsAndSunscreen]

I stand and salute the flag with my attention and I verbally say the pledge. I do this because of the thousands of men and women who have died to give me the right to do so. And to give the rights of those who do NOT want to, that right too.

I totally support their right to take a knee. I won't do it myself but I completely understand why they do it.


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[MAPPLEBUM]

Well said.

I haven't pledged allegiance since high school.

I've never been African-American in the United States, nor raised a black son knowing he could easily be targeted by law enforcement, even killed, through no fault of his own. So I don't really have a dog in this race per se.

But when I was in fifth grade, I thought hard about the words of the Pledge, and realized I did want to pledge my allegiance to this flag and country, but couldn't in good faith abide by the "under god" bit. So from the age of 10, I stood but didn't always put my hand over my heart. Sometimes I stand and listen to the lyrics of the anthem but don't remove my hat or sing along. Are we a country who demands physical obedience to the rites of patriotism, above the actions of loyal participation in our democracy, and equitable treatment for our citizens?

Absolutely it's your right not to watch professional athletes who don't stand loyally and put their hands on their hearts. As it's my right not to watch professional athletes who beat and rape women and earn millions of dollars and ravening fans for it. (Not that I'd follow the foosballs regardless. It's just not a thing we're in to, here in this house.) But it's definitely not the right of our government to censure citizens for peacefully displaying their dissent with the status quo. That's the whole First Amendment thing, in a nutshell.

I'm in a military community and I love our country and our service people. I love and respect our community law enforcement. But I see a deep ugly shadow over law enforcement nationwide and how it treats racial minorities. That shadow is a fact. Like climate change, you don't get to not "believe" in it, no matter how uncomfortable it is. Sometimes progress means shaking up the status quo. In this case, it means drawing media attention to the disproportionate deaths and incarceration of people of color. I respect the athletes immensely who use their celebrity to bring the spotlight to this issue, instead of just using it to get their way with women and buy fancy cars.

I understand being uncomfortable with this choice of protest. I am in the process of teaching my children to stand and remove their hats, telling them that is what good citizens do; how do I explain to them otherwise? But my discomfort is nothing to the ominous threat of incarceration and death that minority populations face. There can be exceptions to this rule.

[McPants]

I'm all for it, obviously. You shouldn't be forced to take a political stance by your employer, even though they may legally have that right in the U.S. In the UK, the month leading up to Remembrance Day, people wear poppies on their clothes to show support for their troops. It was originally meant as a way to honor casualties of war, however these days it's a type of nationalist symbol to a lot of people. Soccer teams tend to add the poppy to their shirts during this month and there are always a small number of players who refuse to wear it because they're from Ireland/Northern Ireland and find supporting UK troops incompatible with their political views. There are elements of UK society who attack them over this every year, however the teams tend to allow them to not wear it, as they should. Personally I support no armed forces and would never wear such a symbol.

[spotty_dog]

[MENTION=985]spotty_dog[/MENTION] I agree on most things, but also feel protesting the flag/national anthem is offensive to those who have risked their lives or died for this country. Those engaging in these protests mean to be provocative, and they are. Also, we turned off the NFL due to the culture of rape, wife beating a long time ago.

You know, I honestly don't believe you should be forced to sing the national anthem at work. I'd have all players stay inside until after it's over.

I guess one thing to notice is that there are actually overwhelming numbers of veterans who do NOT feel that these actions disrespect their sacrifice. (Certainly there are still those who do, and you're right -- the act is meant to provoke attention and be controversial or it wouldn't be noticed, so of course there are people who will be upset.)

But yeah, not only should employers not expect this, but what's really important here is that the PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES should not weigh in on it. That part is what's really boggling me. (Because apparently, this isn't the employers forcing the issue per se; the NFL, and most of the owners, support the rights of the players. Though actions do speak louder than words, and we all know why Kaepernick is unemployed this season -- I might not follow football but I've seen enough analyses to think that another player with his skill level would be on the field.)

[PrincessFiona]

Trump should grow up. I think one of the flaws with making this so controversial is that it is not working. The protest is not drawing attention to the issues it hoped to. Instead the discussion focuses on America, patriotism, and veterans/soldiers. Also, now people who "support the flag" are refusing to watch the NFL as are people who think Kapernick should be rehired. Either way, the NFL is being hit. I'm not sure that Kapernick isn't on the field due to protests. Even some of my die-hard lib football fan friends think he wasn't as talented as others (Not a statistical sample). I have nothing against him or his cause.


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[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Trump has made this a thing. Today a ton of Baltimore Ravens players knelt when none had before. By saying they should be fired, he brought out more people.

But Trump is doing this on purpose, he knows it'll fire up his base and distract from the further health care failure and his incredibly dangerous rhetoric around N Korea. He tweeted an actual threat at N Korea this morning. Not a veiled threat, not a thinly veiled threat, a "we are going to take you out SOON threat".

I'm so sickened by the fact that a man who never served in the armed forces saying he's defending military honor/patriotism over free speech while he gets us into a WAR that'll put military lives at risk. That seems to make a ton of respect. The NFL players are the ones who don't get it...


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[MrsC]

Haven't they been doing this for years and it's served no purpose but to add to hateful rhetoric? On all sides. I'm all for free speech but all this does is detract from important issues. It's pointless.

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[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Only about a year. But it wasn't a big deal or even remotely widespread until Trump got involved.

He's all for free speech for white racists....but apparently black NFL players don't have the same rights.


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[MrsC]

It just feels like it's been years lol. Oh I completely agree that Trump is doing this to detract from the healthcare bill. I just wish people didn't buy into it. My FB is nothing but people attacking each other right now.

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[Meenah]

I'm so embarrassed and ashamed that that man is the POTUS, I do think he is a white supremacist asshat. I 100 % support "taking a knee".