Taking a knee

[medpedspouse]

My FB is nothing but people attacking each other right now.

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Mine too. If the purpose of either side was to create divisiveness and stir up hate, they have been quite successful.

[MrsC]

I just now saw Trump's initial comment. I didn't realize it was that bad. I think a lot of people didn't. What a racist pig! I completely understand why they did it now.
All day I've been reading how he "criticized" and only saw his stupid tweets so I thought it was all a bit unnecessary. Wow.

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[spotty_dog]

Mine too. If the purpose of either side was to create divisiveness and stir up hate, they have been quite successful.

I don't think the people who want you to believe that Black Lives Matter would say their *purpose* is to stir up hate. If the concept that Black Lives Matter as much as other lives in this country creates hate in your heart, then there's something else going on there. Maybe something that needed to be brought out into the open.

What's weirding me out now is that for Trump and his followers, there seems to be a line between kneeling and standing. The teams that have stood today and linked arms in unity have gotten praise across the board. The teams that have opted to show solidarity by taking a knee (the same respectful gesture we use in elementary age sports to send our focus and concern to an injured player on the field) have continued to get derided.

But I do love this analysis from the Fox News sports commentary team. Gives me hope. https://www.facebook.com/NFLonFOX/vi...0549759983158/

[medpedspouse]

I don't think the people who want you to believe that Black Lives Matter would say their *purpose* is to stir up hate. If the concept that Black Lives Matter as much as other lives in this country creates hate in your heart, then there's something else going on there. Maybe something that needed to be brought out into the open.

What's weirding me out now is that for Trump and his followers, there seems to be a line between kneeling and standing. The teams that have stood today and linked arms in unity have gotten praise across the board. The teams that have opted to show solidarity by taking a knee (the same respectful gesture we use in elementary age sports to send our focus and concern to an injured player on the field) have continued to get derided.

But I do love this analysis from the Fox News sports commentary team. Gives me hope. https://www.facebook.com/NFLonFOX/vi...0549759983158/

Not sure what I wrote to prompt you to respond to my post this way. Do you assume I did not know and had to explain to me what people that believe Black Live's Matter mean?

I was talking about people posting on FB. If their purpose is create more divisiveness and hate, I do see plenty of evidence they have succeeded. I believe these type of conversations need to be full of empathy and seek the other's perspective before making assumptions. Perhaps face to face is a better option for it seems FB creates and environment for some (on both sides) to say things that do not foster understanding.

[spotty_dog]

Not sure what I wrote to prompt you to respond to my post this way. Do you assume I did not know and had to explain to me what people that believe Black Live's Matter mean?

I guess after recent events, I'm sensitive to "on both sides" language. MrsC said that "they've been doing this for years and it's served no purpose but to add to hateful rhetoric," and then you said that both sides have been successful in fulfilling a purpose of divisiveness and hate. I understood these sides to refer to the protesters and those who oppose them -- especially since unfortunately, the BLM movement has been branded as a violent and divisive one. I wasn't accusing you personally. But even sympathetic people seem to think that the athletes shouldn't be protesting "like this" because of the controversy it stirs up, or that BLM protesters should be "more like MLK"...anyway the thing is, the people who are behaving in hate-filled ways didn't have that hate *put* into them because of the protests. If that makes sense?

I don't feel like Facebook is a place for changing hearts and minds, but it is a fascinating petri dish for social engineering, especially knowing how it's been weaponized by our country's enemies. I have my feed pretty well locked down to mostly friends' photographs and my communities du jour (I am on an Instant Pot and PTA kick lately so they're the only ones I have on Follow), so I haven't been seeing a lot of back-and-forth sniping.

[medpedspouse]

I guess after recent events, I'm sensitive to "on both sides" language. MrsC said that "they've been doing this for years and it's served no purpose but to add to hateful rhetoric," and then you said that both sides have been successful in fulfilling a purpose of divisiveness and hate. I understood these sides to refer to the protesters and those who oppose them -- especially since unfortunately, the BLM movement has been branded as a violent and divisive one. I wasn't accusing you personally. But even sympathetic people seem to think that the athletes shouldn't be protesting "like this" because of the controversy it stirs up, or that BLM protesters should be "more like MLK"...anyway the thing is, the people who are behaving in hate-filled ways didn't have that hate *put* into them because of the protests. If that makes sense?

I don't feel like Facebook is a place for changing hearts and minds, but it is a fascinating petri dish for social engineering, especially knowing how it's been weaponized by our country's enemies. I have my feed pretty well locked down to mostly friends' photographs and my communities du jour (I am on an Instant Pot and PTA kick lately so they're the only ones I have on Follow), so I haven't been seeing a lot of back-and-forth sniping.

My apologies for stating my view of what was happening on my FB feed. I thought I was clear regarding what I meant to say and later, when I saw your post, I thought I should clarify further. I was wrong to share my experience. It was not my intent to stir sensitivity regarding "both sides" language and to prompt you to feel as if I needed to be filled in on the issues. Again, my sincere apology. Please know I will refrain from doing such again.

[spotty_dog]

My apologies for stating my view of what was happening on my FB feed. I thought I was clear regarding what I meant to say and later, when I saw your post, I thought I should clarify further. I was wrong to share my experience. It was not my intent to stir sensitivity regarding "both sides" language and to prompt you to feel as if I needed to be filled in on the issues. Again, my sincere apology. Please know I will refrain from doing such again.

MPS, does it feel to you like this forum's conversations often devolve into misunderstandings? I assume your good intentions, can you please assume mine? Love to you, and to all.

[PrincessFiona]

It's actually written into the NFL rules that players stand. To be clear, I support Black Lives Matters and most peaceful forms of protest. I do not back antifa. I was raised to have great respect for America and the flag and so I don't get behind this (even though I refused to say the pledge in 7th grade out of protest). I'm not a trump supporter.


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[poky]

It's actually written into the NFL rules that players stand. To be clear, I support Black Lives Matters and most peaceful forms of protest. I do not back antifa. I was raised to have great respect for America and the flag and so I don't get behind this (even though I refused to say the pledge in 7th grade out of protest). I'm not a trump supporter.


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It's not in the rulebook. http://www.snopes.com/must-nfl-players-stand/

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[MrsC]

I guess after recent events, I'm sensitive to "on both sides" language. MrsC said that "they've been doing this for years and it's served no purpose but to add to hateful rhetoric," and then you said that both sides have been successful in fulfilling a purpose of divisiveness and hate. I understood these sides to refer to the protesters and those who oppose them -- especially since unfortunately, the BLM movement has been branded as a violent and divisive one. I wasn't accusing you personally. But even sympathetic people seem to think that the athletes shouldn't be protesting "like this" because of the controversy it stirs up, or that BLM protesters should be "more like MLK"...anyway the thing is, the people who are behaving in hate-filled ways didn't have that hate *put* into them because of the protests. If that makes sense?

I don't feel like Facebook is a place for changing hearts and minds, but it is a fascinating petri dish for social engineering, especially knowing how it's been weaponized by our country's enemies. I have my feed pretty well locked down to mostly friends' photographs and my communities du jour (I am on an Instant Pot and PTA kick lately so they're the only ones I have on Follow), so I haven't been seeing a lot of back-and-forth sniping.

What I meant by "on both sides" was that this method of protesting has never truly been about the cause (BLM).It may be to the players but it has devolved into a "you hate the flag and our veterans' vs "free speech" argument. At least that's the way I perceive it. That's all most people are talking about. My point was, if the way you're protesting detracts so much from the cause (which is an absolutely worthy one), what's the point? There were so many other things they could have that would have had a greater impact.


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[spotty_dog]

What I meant by "on both sides" was that this method of protesting has never truly been about the cause (BLM).It may be to the players but it has devolved into a "you hate the flag and our veterans' vs "free speech" argument. At least that's the way I perceive it. That's all most people are talking about. My point was, if the way you're protesting detracts so much from the cause (which is an absolutely worthy one), what's the point? There were so many other things they could have that would have had a greater impact.

I hear you, and I understand your perspective. It's tough to look at what the controversy has grown into, and the plight Kaepernick finds himself in, and say "Great success and benefit to the cause!"

But...sometimes conscientious objection, or civil disobedience, or quiet gestures of solidarity aren't meant to pack an immediate punch. Sometimes it's just their persistence that makes people face up to the cause, and take sides. We wouldn't be having this nationwide conversation (admittedly, derailing attention from North Korea and Puerto Rico and health care -- but what country can compartmentalize its issues and deliver them one at a time) if Kaepernick hadn't made his choice in 2016 and stuck with it.

Plus I do think the intent matters and it seems to me that this protest *was* always about the cause -- Kaepernick and other athletes have put a lot of genuine thought into doing something to show their concerns about racial justice and police brutality issues but also their love of country. What can we say, "They should have known that people would misinterpret the gesture to be the literal equivalent of crapping on the American flag?"

[Flynn]

My grandfather, a world war II veteran was asked many times while raising kids in the 60s how a man from his generation had so much tolerance for civil disobedience and/or nonviolent protest. His answer, he fought a war to preserve that right and many many others. Did he like people not standing for the pledge of allegiance? No, it wasn't his preference. He always stood proudly and with respect. But he said he would be a hypocrite to judge such people. As a white man, he argued he's never been a member of a minority group and it would be presumptuous of him to think he KNEW what a person of a different skin color went through. In his opinion, he had seen enough about "one way of thinking" while touring Germany and the devastation and fear Hitler caused.

In my opinion taking a knee is a right of our society. A right many people have died for.

I find hope and am encouraged by people who can respect both the person with their hand over their heart during the pledge of allegiance, and the person taking a knee.

[PrincessFiona]

It's not in the rulebook. http://www.snopes.com/must-nfl-players-stand/

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Thanks!!!!


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[rufflesanddots]

I support it. Watched this video today (8 min) and thought it was helpful for understanding the original intent behind kneeling and attempts to change the narrative. http://www.foxsports.com/watch/undis.../1054207043815

I think, when the kneeling is understood in its original context, it becomes more disrespectful to not address issues like systemic racism and social injustice than it does to quietly kneel before the flag.

[JDAZ11]

My grandfather, a world war II veteran was asked many times while raising kids in the 60s how a man from his generation had so much tolerance for civil disobedience and/or nonviolent protest. His answer, he fought a war to preserve that right and many many others. Did he like people not standing for the pledge of allegiance? No, it wasn't his preference. He always stood proudly and with respect. But he said he would be a hypocrite to judge such people. As a white man, he argued he's never been a member of a minority group and it would be presumptuous of him to think he KNEW what a person of a different skin color went through. In his opinion, he had seen enough about "one way of thinking" while touring Germany and the devastation and fear Hitler caused.

In my opinion taking a knee is a right of our society. A right many people have died for.

I find hope and am encouraged by people who can respect both the person with their hand over their heart during the pledge of allegiance, and the person taking a knee.

This is how I feel.


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