Could we accept a presidential candidate...

[spotty_dog]

Re. Teresa Heinz Kerry. I think this is quoted from CNN:

"Heinz Kerry's comment came Sunday after she told a group of voters, "We need to turn back some of the creeping, un-Pennsylvanian and sometimes un-American traits that are coming into some of our politics."

As she was leaving, Colin McNickle, the Tribune-Review's editorial page editor, asked her what she had meant by, in his words, "un-American activities."

She denied having said "activities" and also denied saying "un-American."

After stepping away and speaking briefly with Democratic organizers of the event, she returned and asked the reporter whether he worked for the Tribune-Review. He said he did.

"Understandable. You said something I didn't say, now shove it," she told him."

Another explanation pointed out that "un-American activities" is a very McCarthy-like phrase which is why it rubbed her the wrong way.

[SueC]

I'm in the camp of not really caring what the vocation of the first lady is. In fact, I didn't even know who Kerry's spouse was until the other day I saw a headline containing "Heinz Kerry" with a picture of her. My first thought was that she had an awfully strange first name ( ) and then I realized she is part of the Heinz family. I guess I'm a little slow these days. Anyhow, it's silly that we expect the first lady to pick some little cause to busy herself with while her husband is in office.

Yeah I don't really care what the first lady does. Anyway I'm much more bothered by Kerry's VP's professional interests than his wife's!

[spotty_dog]

Re: Kris' experience as a spouse.

I am so fortunate to have my mother-in-law as a role model for being a med spouse. (My father-in-law was a gastroenterologist.) She is a strong woman who had a dedicated career through raising a fine son right up to retirement. She also had hobbies and activities outside of work, and from the time my husband chose his career path she has urged me to have my own pursuits and my own life because my husband will just not always be there.

Whether I choose a career or choose to stay home is my choice, no one else's. With my leaning toward being a SAHM, I feel especially fortunate that my husband's salary will eventually support us both. But at some point I'm going to want pursuits outside the home as well, and the thought that someone would criticize either decision is infuriating and disheartening. Is this where feminism has gotten us?

Of course, my father-in-law recently said something along the lines of, "Oh, well after you have your first child you could always go back and get a REAL job." As if the choice to be everything to my kids, from cook and housekeeper to educator and transportation, isn't a real job. Grr.

[PrincessFiona]

That's interesting, Sally...like I said, this was just my experience based on the encounters that I had. It isn't meant to be representative of the experience of being a med spouse. 8) I think that I was also hypersensitive to the criticisms and comments made because I struggled with such self-doubt about my decisions. It could have just been my perception.

kris

[Phoebe]

My experiences echo Sally's. Maybe I have been ovblious to people's opinions and haven't noticed. Then again, most people who meet my husband are surprised to learn of his profession. I am not sure why.

[houseelf]

I won't comment on the Ms. Heinz-Kerry thing, but I will comment on the interesting tangent this thread has taken because it taps into so many of my issues and you all know how I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to purge around here.

Julie said:

I think the unrealistic expectations I'm facing are more that some people aren't quite getting that you can't really follow the established "two-career family" model without a hitch when one of those careers is as a physician. So far, though, I feel like I'm definitley getting signals that people expect me to continue my career uninterrupted even after we have kids.

I am subjected to this misconception all the time and literally everyone in my life knows that my DH works his A** off. Seriously, my neighbors used to joke that I really didn't have a husband...I just made it up. The smart a** in me wants to nip this type of comment in the bud: "Sure, we'll have kids who are well adjusted and thriving, I'll make partner in a prestigious law firm in 5 years, and DH will become a brilliant surgeon all the while I run marathons, keep a clean house, and breastfeed forever! We'll be like the Cosbys on Crystal Meth!"

Puhleeese, the further DH goes in his career, I tend to become even farther removed from the power brokers of my field. Fortunately, I don't consider my career a "calling" like DH does, so I don't mind going on the very, very slow track or even scrapping it entirely. But people's assumptions about my life and decisions fire me up. Just yesterday, someone who is fully apprised of my situation, asked me if I would ever consider becoming a magistrate or judge. Again, my inner monologue that I have become so swift at suppressing: "Sure, I'll follow DH around the country, take all the sick days and maternity leave in the world, run every aspect of our lives, and beat out someone else for this type of position who is well connected in the local bar and has paid a fair share of professional dues."

On the other hand, I find that this perception is true as well:

Kris said:
[quote] It has been my experience (very limited, mind you) that there is an expectation that the wife of the budding physician be a sah wife/parent and fully support her 'man'....with a smile on her face (ie no complaining about call schedules, exhaustion or his absence). Again...this is simply my teeeny, tiny experience that I'm generalizing so its' why I'm asking. [quote]

Kris, this crap is almost promulgated by the powers-that-be-in the medical profession. As in, "you have the gall to not want your husband to do a fellowship? You selfish witch!" Believe me, I have heard enough people comment about So-and-so’s wife who put her foot down and wouldn’t “let” her hubby do x, y, or z. This is a real, albeit unjust, expectation of spouses within the profession. It is all about the doctors, ladies and gentleman. You must succumb!

And finally, Sally, I got your back on this one:

[quote] ......I get tired of having to explain the crapside of medicine over and over, and I get tired of living with the assumptions of others. I like knowing other medical spouses who live their lives as part-time single parents....it makes me feel less bitter about the whole thing.
[quote]

Just this week one of my dearest friends in the world was dreaming about our lives together if DH and I were to move close to her for fellowship. Mind you, this is a woman who owns 2 restaurants and has approximately 75 employees working for her. During our fantasizing about being able to get together often she says, “.... and I’ll be able to use your nanny and pool if I ever have a child care crisis or I want to take a break…”

What? She knows our financial situation. Further, we have a type of friendship in which no topic is sacred. She knows the details of this crap lifestyle and has heard me moan ad infinitum. At the end of the day, however, there will always be a little part of her who believes that I am just a privileged Doctor’s wife.

Somebody, pass the bon bons please.

ooooohhhhhhhhh....Now that felt nice. I feel all vindicated and righteous! I need to go kick some butt somewhere now.

Kelly

[Sheherezade]

Re: Kris et al comments on spouse career vs. SAH

I felt like I got flack in the opposite direction -- I'm wasting my life as a SAHM, etc. Also, I was the only SAHP I've ever known at any of our programs. Most couples we knew were both residents (with small kids, no less!!). I don't think they had an easy road either. Interestingly, I always feel like the hard core working moms were defensive in conversations with me. I think that they feel I am judging them. They would probably be surprised to know I'm incredibly wishy-washy about staying home with my kids. Some of them have even started a guilty "I wish I could spend time with my kids too" ramble spontaneously when I've approached. I can certainly understand working for necessary income or for intellectual/spiritual fufillment. I wish we could all just get along already!!!! I'm sorry this is such an issue for all the moms (and maybe the dads??) out there. Shouldn't it be easier? It seems like we all want to do right by our children AND do something for ourselves or the world. How about a 30 hour work week? Or part-time jobs that are actually career-track and not just "jobs"? I different schedule norm for people in the parenting years--with (of course) reduced income so as not to piss off the non-kids element. Sometimes this world makes me nuts. I'm working hard at being happy with not having it all and disregarding the opinions of others. (No cracks about how I'm not doing so well I'm TRYING, really!!! )

Angie

Just this week one of my dearest friends in the world was dreaming about our lives together if DH and I were to move close to her for fellowship. Mind you, this is a woman who owns 2 restaurants and has approximately 75 employees working for her. During our fantasizing about being able to get together often she says, “.... and I’ll be able to use your nanny and pool if I ever have a child care crisis or I want to take a break…”

Ok, that one really got me laughing. I'm assuming that your friend is living in a third world country and that is where DH would do fellowship? Because that's about the only place where we could afford a nanny and a pool!

I guess I haven't run into the support your hubby at all costs attitude too much outside of the IM and Derm departments at his former program. *deep breath* *deep, cleansing breath* It was mostly from a bunch of old white guy type airbags. We all know what they can go do to themselves.

I agree, Sally, that most people just don't get the medical lifestyle and I'm too tired to explain it any more. They especially don't get how it can infringe on the career of the spouse. I get people who think my husband is rolling in $$$ but is an a*&hole for having me on some tight financial leash. The other day someone asked me if medical students get paid. Trying to keep from laughing hysterically (her intentions were good), I said no. She said, but don't they work in a hospital? Umm....yes.....but they are paying to be there to learn. No wonder it's confusing! How many people think that as long as they have a white coat on they are getting paid? Probably quite a few!

Anyway, I've pretty much given up on explaining. It just doesn't matter. When I am lucky enough to stumble across someone who's family member or friend has gone through med school and residency, I just soak up the sympathy.

[houseelf]

P.S. While most would agree their are distorted and unfair societal expectations regarding both SAHP and WOTHP (as in "work outside the home parents" ), I think that the issue here is whether there is an additional layer of stereotyping and misconceptions for those of us who are "dawctors' wives". (Thanks for the great term, Jenn!). As the archives of this site will evidence, passions flare on the general topic of the "great divide" between women.

Since I don't want to revive this potentially inflamatory topic yet again, I just want to clarify the issue at hand: Whether there are additional stereotypes, fair or otherwise, that the spouses of physicians are subjected to.

Perhaps that is why Ms. Heinz-Kerry's employment sparked this dialogue: Her hubby is in a power field just like us.

Kelly
Kelly

[mommax3]

Yeah, the best way I could explain the demands of med school to people who didn't have a clue was to say that it was like student teaching, only for four years instead of a semester. 8O

I wonder if some of the expectations we have picked up on, in either direction (SAHP or career) are influenced regionally? I feel like I had a middle-of-the-road experience compared to the extremes experienced by Kris and by Angie......perhaps because the people I was around (including nurses, secretaries in the program, etc.) were from all parts of the country(military) and the extremes were moderated and/or canceled out?

Just a thought.....

Sally

True, true.
And I have to remind myself that there opportunities for misunderstanding abound. A friend of mine with a 3 yo and baby due any day was asked by a colleague (who is lightyears away from having children) -- so, are you going to do any traveling during your maternity leave? Traveling, as in going to Europe or something, not schlepping the diaper bag over to grandma's.

[mommax3]

That is funny, Nellie. I used to die laughing (in my head, of course ) when female colleauges of DH's who were pregnant for the first time would discuss with delight all that they planned to accomplish during their maternity leave.

It strikes me funny just now that as I am working up a head of steam because people think I have such an easy, glamouous life.....here is the reality.....my couch is covered with folded laundry, my kitchen floors are sticky, Nathan just ate something off the floor (I don't even know if it was food 8O ) and the dryer is going off repeatedly as I try to have just the beginning of an intelligent conversation. DH just called to say his pager isn't working so the phone will likely ring all night because he is on call.

Damn straight, pass the bon-bons!

Sally

[Sheherezade]

I agree that the spouse experience differs by region. In both Baltimore and in Boston, I had absolutely no experience with the "doctor's wife" stereotype. Doctors were a dime a dozen in our neighborhoods. Also, few of the younger ones could afford to buy a home--so I think we were actually at a lower SEC in our last neighborhood (Brookline, MA) because we were medical. I even had one friend reveal to me that she had been advised to not hang out wih medical types because they always move away . Maybe that explains why Boston wasn't a joy.....
In contrast, when DH came to OH to do a second look at this job, the staff members approached me a told me not to worry-- Cleveland had both Saks and Nordstroms. Whoo-what a relief! My friends in Brookline got a kick out of that. I don't think I've ever bought anything in a store that nice. I am prepared to become more wealthy if that is what is required of me.... I love bon bons.
On a separate note--I don't want to start any fights either. Still my comments about SAHP vs. WP were in reference to the political original thread. I don't think people have an issue with a non parent working so much anymore- even if she is First Lady. I think it get emotional when it is SAH vs. WP. If Laura Bush went to work I think she'd be cheered by many, but if Jackie O (with two little kids) went to work in our current times, she'd get a lot of crap. So to clarify--my comments about the fight between SAHP and WP and why can't we get along had to do with my opinion about why we as a nation have trouble with a working first lady. Again, just my experience. In my corner of the world, I don't know of anyone who objects to a woman for working, being outspoken, independent or anything of that sort. It only becomes an issue when in impacts her childcare decisions in a way that disagrees with someone else's values. I think these are personal issues but I could see them being used in a "character" debate easily.

Angie

[Sheherezade]

P.S. I don't have any problem with Heinz Kerry. I like her. Of course, I'm from the northeast and I'm most recently from MA. I'm probably a product of media manipulation. Still, I don't know if we'd characterize her as a working stiff--she's worth hundreds of millions. I don't think you can put a "job" like managing your personal fortune on hold. I see Howard Dean's wife as the prototype for a working First Lady. Independent career, very different than politics. I think the issue with Hillary and Teresa hasn't been their "work" as much as their comments/opinions. I'll have to reread the original post, but these seem like two different issues. You could have a nice mild mannered working woman with no agenda and no PR per se accepted well. Or, your could have a louder, in your face unemployed First Lady with an axe to grind generally despised. Maybe its because we all know what influence a wife can have on her husband? (Think Nancy Reagen and the horoscopes!) First Ladies with an agenda are a little scary because they aren't elected and yet have considerable influence? I could see that.

Angie
(Trying to get back on topic)