Have we become too informal?

[PrincessFiona]

That's 'kris' to you! :>

[Sheherezade]

[Rapunzel]

I think it is more of an intimacy issue than anything else. I chafe if someone I don't know calls me by my first name by itself. I don't want a person to feel they can refer to me on such a casual basis if they do not know me, don't know me well, or have a business relationship with me. I've had doctors refer to me by my first name. If I don't know them well I tell them they may call me "Mrs. S_______" If they have interacted with me before I reciprocate by referring to that particular doctor by his/her first name. I've seen some doctors get rather uncomfortable over that!

Now, if I am introducing myself to someone I am trying to develop a social friendship with I do so by my first and last name. If that person then chooses to call me by my first name I welcome it in an effort to build a more intimate relationship - but, again, it's only with my permission.

As far as children using my first name: If they are the children of my friends I don't mind. I feel it's OK because these kids only hear their parents referring to me as "Jennifer" so that is how those children think of me. I'm fine with them calling me by my first name because of our relationship. Similarly I only allow my children to call adults by their first names in one of two situations: 1) The adult is a close friend of mine whom we refer to at home by their first name and 2) The adult introduces themselves only by their first name to my children (logically then my children can assume that is the name that individual chooses to go by).

With the children of my REALLY close friends I find that they often "slip" and start calling me "Mom" when they're around me. That's OK, too. As long as they are truly close to me. I would be annoyed if it was just some stranger's kid coming up to me and calling me such an intimate name as "Mom".

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

I forgot to add: I also don't like my children calling adults "Miss (insert first name here)". And I will NOT tolerate a child calling me "Miss Jennifer". Why? Where I grew up (in the South) it was a term used for those who were seen as "less than" - it was almost a derogatory way of referring to someone of a different "class". It implied a certain level of intimacy while "winking" at the fact that the individual was an adult that derserved a certain level of respect. The people I saw using that type of referencing to others generally used it towards those who were service type individuals (including daycare workers/babysitters), those who were economically "lower" in the community, and those who weren't "white".

So, as a born Southerner, I find the background of saying "Miss (first name)" far too offensive and paternalistic to use it or allow it to be used with me.

Jennifer

[SuzySunshine]

Wow - I'm not really sure what to say. When we lived in CA I worked at a nursery school and the children were told to call their teachers, Teacher Cheri, not Mrs. X.

Growing up I can always remember calling adults Mrs. X unless they told me to call them something else. Probably around high school I would say I started calling most of my close friends' parents by their first name, by their request. It took me forever to call my in-laws by their first names, they're just very formal people and to this day I have a hard time calling my DH's grandparents by their first names though that is what they've requested.

I guess thinking about it I would prefer kids to call me Mrs. X until I felt comfortable enough with them to call me by my first name but I also think that comes with age, not necessarily just the closeness of the relationship.

Kris, you always provoke some interesting thoughts.

[HeartRN]

I forgot to add: I also don't like my children calling adults "Miss (insert first name here)". And I will NOT tolerate a child calling me "Miss Jennifer". Why? Where I grew up (in the South) it was a term used for those who were seen as "less than" - it was almost a derogatory way of referring to someone of a different "class". It implied a certain level of intimacy while "winking" at the fact that the individual was an adult that derserved a certain level of respect. The people I saw using that type of referencing to others generally used it towards those who were service type individuals (including daycare workers/babysitters), those who were economically "lower" in the community, and those who weren't "white".

So, as a born Southerner, I find the background of saying "Miss (first name)" far too offensive and paternalistic to use it or allow it to be used with me.

Jennifer

This is really interesting to me....I honestly had no idea that this was derogatory in nature, and it doesn't seem to present itself as such in our daycare environment. The teachers at DD's daycare all refer to each other as "Miss (first name)" when talking about each other to other kids or even amongst themselves; even on the gifts they gave the kids over the holidays (bubbles and a book ), they wrote "from Miss (first name)". This is the only place I've heard it used though, (aside from when other parents are talking to their small kids about other adult friends...like friends of mine talking to their kids about me. Does that mean they are implying I am of a "lesser" class? I wouldn't be surprised, given my lack of style and overall bohemian nature!!!!

Wow, I had no idea that the "Miss" thing was derogatory in any way. It does imply a certain level of intimacy for sure, that's why my friends and I use it for our friends and close neighbors. I haven't noticed any of the winking aspect though.

I hope the meaning must have shifted significantly, for my uber liberal friends (as well as thei more conservative mothers) have embraced it.

[Meenah]

I always use my first name, and have never wanted to be called Ms Miss or Mrs anything. Just my personal preference , I am ME first.
Luanne

I am known as Jenn to all of my friend's kids, but as we've been meeting classmates, it's started to be Mrs. I always address ds' teachers as Mrs. I agree that there should be a bit of formality, b/c as much as I can assert my "authority" there are some kids these days to whom that means nothing. On the other hand, I truely am loathe to be Mrs. X b/c THAT is my mother-in-law. Whenever I have to use a title on a form, I use Ms. -- Mrs. (being identified as married rather than single) has always rubbed me the wrong way.

DH never uses Dr. outside of work, and has a v. friendly relationship w/the lab techs, etc. We're just not title people.

[Rapunzel]

That's just my experience with the whole "Miss first name" thing. I KNOW it was definitely a cultural thing and so I can completely see how it would be different in various other cultural situations. I honestly don't know if the practice originated in the South or not. There were groups of people that I would meet who would only use "Miss first name" in reference to children - which would make it not derogatory as much as an authoritarian thing (ie used towards those with less "clout" or authority). It was just never really used in terms of viewing another person with equality where I grew up. That's all.

Jennifer

[Vanquisher]

I guess I just don't see what the big deal is. I just let people call me whatever they are comfortable with. Most of my son's friends call me "Ryan's mom." As in, "Hi, Ryan's mom!" Whatever. I think it's weird when people insist on being referred to so formally. Whether I know a person well or not, it seems rude to me to expect someone to refer to you as Mrs. or Dr. or whatever. I see it as a sign of friendship for someone to say my name, and I do the same. My last name can be hard to say for children, and I don't feel insulted when they can't say it.

It is new to me to be called ma'am and I have to say, in some places in the country it is insulting to be called ma'am. A lot of places people consider it as a sign of old age. You would only say it to someone really old. Here in the south, children refer to me as ma'am all the time, and though *I* am used to ma'am being a more formal and "elder" word, I consider it as I consider anything else you may want to call me, a comfort level for you.

As a former waitress, I often said you guys, or ya'll or everyone. Because frankly, I don't know their names, and you have to call them something! I am shocked to hear that my tips could have dropped for such a thing. All I was trying to do was be friendly, as opposed to saying, "Hey you!" or "Ma'am" which is worse in some places, I have to say.

So, call me whatever you feel comfortable with, but it feels weird to me to be more formal than first names, I will allow it.

Have those of you who insist on formality ever considered how uncomfortable it makes other people? Like someone was saying (I forget who most of the way into my post), referring to someone so formally can also be seen as a class issue, and I don't want anyone thinking that I think I'm better than they are. This is why I have such a problem with Dr.s (dh's co-workers) who insist that he and I call them "Dr. ____." In my opinion, get off your high horse, and be a person. I am not your patient.

Wow, everyone's responses are so interesting. I fall into the old school camp as I was raised that way. These responses certainly underscore the importance of teaching your children to address adults/people formally until invited to do otherwise, and then always addressing them by their preference since no one wants their children unwittingly offending anyone...

Sorry, that was me (Ladybug) I'm hiding downstairs at my ILs and don't know how to sign it...

-Annie

[Meenah]

Jennifer,
I'm not sure it is a "southern" thing. I was born and raised in the south. As you know the south, southeast and southwest are all very different. In the Deep south of Mississippi addressing someone as Miss ____ is a sign of respect. From another angle, when my daughter said "yes maam and no maam" here in NJ I thought it was polite, and people here thought they were being rude. It really does depend where you are!
Luanne

[PrincessFiona]

Crack me UP! I actually debated putting this thread in the ...debate forum. I figured everyone would agree with me and we would all be just talking about how informal everyone has become.

It's interesting to me because 'formal' greetings are very common in other cultures. In german, if you don't know someone as a friend, you refer to them as 'Sie' (the formal form of you). When you know each other better, they eventually become 'du' (informal form of you). As a child you wouldn't just say Mrs. Math, you would always say 'Sie' and anything less would be insulting. This isn't considered snobbery or elitist..it's just how you show respect for your elders or someone you don't know....and 'du' is kind of an accomplishment of friendship.

If I met any of you offline in germany, I would say 'Sie' to you and you would say 'Sie' to me until one of us said 'Oh, for Pete's sake...we've been writing back and forth for years dude...say 'du' to me! It is totally normal and I never considered to to put up a wall between another person and myself or to be elitist. But..I guess it's just cultural.

As to calling teachers Mr. or Mrs..... I guess I just feel that when I go to see a medical doctor, I don't say....hi Barb, how are you..... I call her Dr. X It is a sign of respect because she is a physician and went to medical school etc....I can't imagine NOT calling my doctor Dr. X So...why wouldn't other professional groups get that same respect? I called my boss Dr. X (or behind his back, just 'the jerk' :> ) and I think it is totally appropriate to call a teacher Mr. or Mrs. out of respect for their position as educators.

My students, btw always initially called me Mrs. Math, but I told them to call me Kristen....I did not offer them the opportunity to call me Kris...because I reserve that for my friends.

I'm so complicated.

kris
Kristen
Mrs. Math