Looting

[Amiens]

Watching the news coverage on Hurricane Katrina has made me wonder if in the situation of a lot of these impoverished African Americans or others living in the aftermath of the hurricane if I would loot stores for food, and water. What blows my mind is-- Why would you loot an appliance or electronic when there is no electricity?

Anyway, I was wondering what everyone else's thoughts were on this.

Crystal

[Vanquisher]

Well, I almost can't blame them. I wonder how any of us would behave in the same situation. You've just lost everything you own. I can definitely see the necessity in looting food, clothing, medication.

As far as looting appliances go, it will take a long time to get out from underneath this horrible event, but after it's all over they will have it. A lot of these people probably have nothing and no insurance to replace anything. I'd want a t.v. too. At least it's something.

I'm not saying I would loot an appliance, but I can see why people are doing it. And, hey, they have no where to put criminals or resources to enforce laws. I'm not suprised. I saw one man getting a Dora the Explorer scooter for his daughter. I thought, well, at least he is thinking of his kids. That girl probably could use a little sunshine in her day. From where I sit, Wal-Mart has plenty of money and insurance. Maybe this is their little way of donating to the relief fund.

From where I sit, Wal-Mart has plenty of money and insurance. Maybe this is their little way of donating to the relief fund.

I have to disagree on that point. Whether it's a large corporation (e.g. Walmart) or a small mom and pop shop, it's never right to steal from them. Though these are desperate and unusual times for lots of folks down there, this notion that a large company won't miss it (or that it's impossible to "steal" from a company of a certain size) makes everyone pay year around / day in and day out. For all the people who swipe things from stores everywhere (not just WalMart or during the hurricane), all of us pay for it -- in higher prices and ultimately jobs. In effect, everytime you and I purchase something honestly, we are still required to subsidize / make up for the shop lifters -- i.e. the prices we pay on some level have to compensate for all of the shrinkage / loss from thieves.

Most people when they can easily put a face on a proprieter (e.g. mom and pop shop) wouldn't condone stealing from them. With large companies, it's harder to put a "face" on them but that doesn't mean the economic reverberations of theft aren't felt by many faces attached to large companies. Or that taking something that is not yours is right.

People may have other beefs with companies such as Walmart, but the way to express those beefs is by not buying from them period.

I also think there are probably many more poor people who are not looters than those who are. So, I think it's premature to cast looters as people with no choice or victims of something they can't control. I'm guessing that most of the people who are looting are folks that have been on the wrong side of the law several times in the past. Though I have no way of proving this, I just don't think that your average, honest and law- abiding citizen (no matter how poor) goes on a looting spree even in these circumstances.

And as a side note, WalMart has already (I believe) made over $1 million gift already in a particular area (though even if they didn't do that I wouldn't think that it would give persons the right to loot).

[Vanquisher]

I'm not saying that it is right to loot, or just. I'm not saying that it doesn't hurt the coporations. And, yes, it will cause the price of things to go up. However, I don't think that it will make that big of a difference to the large companies, especially in the long run.

I for one shop at Wal-Mart, and I'm not speaking of their other policies. I do think that they (and they have insurance for these things too) can handle the looting better than small businesses.

This is where the gray area comes in. Is it okay and just to loot toilet paper, food, medication? There is no one down there to buy it from.

No, I don't think all of the looting is coming from otherwise law-abiding citizens. There are definitely opportunists taking advantage of an otherwise bleak situation.

I'm just saying that I understand it. Sometimes material things can be a comfort in the face of utter devastation.

I saw one woman on the Today show this morning holding onto a ceramic cat. It was all that was left of her home.

I just think that I can't really blame them. I wouldn't be looting a T.V., but I've never lost everything that I have either.

I agree with you that large corporations will fare better in the face of lootings than small shops.

I disagree that it won't hurt them much and using insurance policies as an example. The reference to insurance seems to just strengthen my point -- we all pay (a) corporation with higher insurance premiums (b) other persons / corporations seeking insurance in their premiums (c) consumers paying higher prices (d) job loss (e) decrease in value for shareholders, etc.

But even if all those things weren't the case, I still think it would be morally wrong.

As to the gray area of food and medicine, I certainly think in the face of death one could morally take medicine / food if there was no other way to survive. But then, I think the moral person would acknowledge that they did so after the crisis had abated and would at least offer to make restitution. Though at least with the looting that has been shown on tv and discussed here, it seems safe to say that a lot of the stuff that is being swiped is neither food nor medicine.

Finally, it may be that material things could provide comfort. But I think the ceramic cat example proves another point -- material things provide the most comfort when they are attached to memories / personal experience. I'm guessing that the ceramic cat the lady was clinging onto was one that had sentimental value to her prior to and after the storm -- not one she swiped from the Walmart home and garden section after the flood waters came through.

[Vanquisher]

I agree with you. It is wrong. The majority of the looting is not food, clothing, and medication. Though I have seen a lot of food looting.

My only point is, Wal-Mart will still be there tomorrow. This isn't going to force them to close. Yes, insurance rates will go up. I think though, that the cost of this will be spread out amongst consumers and it won't cause the price of goods or insurance to go up that much (unless you live in a flood plain). That's what I mean by not hurting them much. They will still be Wal-Mart's open for business nationwide tomorrow. I am sure there are businesses all over New Orleans that will never open again.

I'm merely saying that I understand it. It doesn't make it right or good, but I understand it.

[DCJenn]

Here's my take-

Looting is stealing and stealing is wrong. That said, in the situation that is currently happening in New Orleans and Mississippi by all means, the grocery stores have food that is rotting- go for it. Clothing- sure, if they were going to destribute it to others (not likely) But there's no reason to destroy other stuff just for the heck of it.

It will become pretty easy to prosecute the people who looted the stuff it will be obvious who had new stuff and who doesn't and there will be no electricity for weeks, there will be no place to live for months- people are having to be airlifted out of the city. My prediction is that as time goes on, there will be a whole lot of abandoned 'stuff' collected and thrown away with all of the other debris.

There's really nothing left of any of those areas, and it's true- it's not like they could be arrested- there's no jails available. So, hopefully those few who decided to take advantage of the many will get theirs. Karma works.

Jenn

Really scary -- criminals on the loose AND tons of unregistered guns being looted (largely I'm guessing by that element).

[DCJenn]

Scary indeed, Kevin.

Hopefully this will somewhat change the 'master plan' for those who sell weapons. (Like when the massive storm hits, put the guns in a safe and then leave. Dont' leave them in the glass cases.

Jenn

PS- I'm doing a masterful job of NOT jumping on my soapbox about guns and gun sales all together, I must say. Patting myself on the back.

PS- I'm doing a masterful job of NOT jumping on my soapbox about guns and gun sales all together, I must say. Patting myself on the back.

You deserve that pat on the back.

I agree Jenn that looting is stealing and stealing is wrong. About the only situation in which I think it is justified is for water, medication, and necessary food. Not the 80 bottles of wine being wheeled out (heard that on the radio). I have to wonder if the some of the people stealing this stuff actually need it.

As to the insurance coverage, I have seen my dad have to deal with that type of insurance coverage, and it is a PITA to deal with. Businesses, no matter the size, are dealt a blow by this too. Although they will be in business tomorrow, they may not pay as well, hire as many people and the prices get passed on to all consumers just like ordinary theft. The amount extra that well all pay on a regular basis isn't insignificant (I've heard figures before and wish I could remember them now).

[pstone]

Annie, that was classic!

You have to admit there's a bit of irony in everyone sitting around in their dry houses, typing on their computers, eating, and dissecting the moral decisions of people in situations they have never even come close to living.

How did you know I was eating a snack? Seriously, I do appreciate the irony. But indulging hypotheticals doesn't diminish what I feel for the suffering folks are undergoing. And I realize I have never faced any kind of disaster remotely akin to theirs. Also, I don't know exactly how I would react under such a scenario (though I'm pretty darn sure I wouldn't be stealing big ticket items). I'm certainly not passing judgement on folks trying to feed their families or provide necessary medicines (as I mentioned earlier).

But perhaps it is unseemly to indulge these hypotheticals during the crisis. But rationally, indulging or not indulging them says nothing about what people may or may not be doing to help the victims. And indulging or not indulging them doesn't help or hurt the victims themselves.

And as far as thinking about or constructing some type of moral framework to apply to situations, I certainly don't think that actually experiencing whatever moral quandry is up for debate is necessary for anyone to enter the debate. If that was the logic followed, then no one (except those who had confronted X issue firsthand) could have an opinion on a myriad of issues debated all the time.

[Rapunzel]

Well, this entire situation has brought home to me that I need to make sure we have a good food storage supply. That's something I've seriously neglected and need to get on-the-ball with and would render moot any "looting for food" issues with my family.

I also have been following several stories regarding massive looting of weapons. Very scary. If I were down in New Orleans right now I'd definitely be keeping my own gun very close by in case one of these criminals decided to use their gun on my family - it's not like any law enforcement is going to be around to stop armed criminals right now....

Very bad situation. But, I think if a hurrican hit Boston we'd see exactly the same type of stuff happening as we are seeing there - from the massive flooding (much of Boston is back-fill into the bay) to the rampant looting.

These situations seem to bring out incredible good in some people and unbelievable bad in many others.

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

OK, here's a quick question: WHERE are the looters puting all of the stuff they take?! Everything's kind of washed away, you know? Is there any safe, dry place for them to deposit the goods??

I just don't see myself watching my home get destroyed by rising waters and thinking, "Hmmm, I guess it's about time I ran over to the store and took that television I always wanted...." Jon just read that and said, "That's because you have no vision." He's such a goof.

Jennifer