Affirmative Action

[Rapunzel]

Yeah, it sucks when you work your ass off get left in the dirt. But the reality in life is the people who feel shafted by AA are the ones who didn't get the job at Morgan Stanley and had to settle for Lehman brothers!

Ummmm..... No. The people who get shafted by being passed over simply because of the color of their skin or ethnicity are parents who have to support their children, poor kids who worked their butts off to rise above their poverty, and NORMAL, non-rich, often non-white (Asian for instance) people - including immigrants.

Life is tough sometimes but I really wish that people wouldn't blame someone else because they weren't recognized for their talents. I will say again that I don't think AA is the greatest thing out there but it helps more people than it hurts. AA doesn't say "Hey there sub par black man, come and take this extremely talented sophisticated well mannered white males job...I know you can't do it but you sure do look right for the position"

I wish that people wouldn't blame someone else because they didn't work hard in school, came from a poor background, had crappy parents that didn't encourage them, etc. The fact is that every individual has the ability to choose what they will do with their life. And, I know - from my own life and my husband's - that being given less tools is NO excuse. NONE.

And, the reality is that certain people may look at my husband's ethnicity and think, "Hmmm.... He must've gotten in because he's hispanic." And, that is awful. AND, it's a direct effect of affirmitive action which doesn't help, but rather, hurts by making any apparently successful non-white subject to suspicion.

I'm sorry if this subject is too emotional for you to continue. It affects my life as well and I see the extremely negative effects that results from a well-intentioned program like affirmitive action. Of course, we know where the road usually leads when it is paved with good intentions....

[Tenacious_D]

Well I am back . Rapunzel, it's not about being poor. It's much deeper than that. I don't know if it's something that I can explain over an internet forum. (I should clarify that not doing well on the SAT's for my peers meant I was in the 1250 range ... not bad but not great either).

I am happy for you and your husband for doing so well considering your initial circumstances. I don't know how many times over the course of your life you were told that you didn't belong and that you couldn't do "it." It meaning being succesful. My guidance counselor in 6th grade told me not to enter an academically gifted program outside of public school because it would be too much work for people like myself. It's about feeling like you will be given a chance even if you don't look like everyone else in the office. You can hide the fact that you are poor...much easier than you can hide the fact that you are a person of color. No matter what people say...it matters. You are right, I contradicted myself earlier when I said that

Too often people will assume, that because I am black that's how I got to where I am.

I've come to realize that unless you truly understand the inequalities that exist for many groups of people, you can only view AA as negative to people who have been doing well for years.
The premise of AA is not the problem. It is how people misuse it.

[Tenacious_D]

LDRO wrote:
Yeah, it sucks when you work your ass off get left in the dirt. But the reality in life is the people who feel shafted by AA are the ones who didn't get the job at Morgan Stanley and had to settle for Lehman brothers!


Ummmm..... No. The people who get shafted by being passed over simply because of the color of their skin or ethnicity are parents who have to support their children, poor kids who worked their butts off to rise above their poverty, and NORMAL, non-rich, often non-white (Asian for instance) people - including immigrants.

This I do not agree with. What kinds of jobs and situations are you thinking about?

[Tenacious_D]

I have to run to squash match but will return to discuss later.

[Rapunzel]

Well I am back . Rapunzel, it's not about being poor. It's much deeper than that. I don't know if it's something that I can explain over an internet forum. (I should clarify that not doing well on the SAT's for my peers meant I was in the 1250 range ... not bad but not great either).

I am happy for you and your husband for doing so well considering your initial circumstances. I don't know how many times over the course of your life you were told that you didn't belong and that you couldn't do "it." It meaning being succesful. My guidance counselor in 6th grade told me not to enter an academically gifted program outside of public school because it would be too much work for people like myself. It's about feeling like you will be given a chance even if you don't look like everyone else in the office. You can hide the fact that you are poor...much easier than you can hide the fact that you are a person of color. No matter what people say...it matters. You are right, I contradicted myself earlier when I said that

Too often people will assume, that because I am black that's how I got to where I am.

I've come to realize that unless you truly understand the inequalities that exist for many groups of people, you can only view AA as negative to people who have been doing well for years.
The premise of AA is not the problem. It is how people misuse it.

Please. You think that because I am white I don't understand what it is to be at a disadvantage - even a severe disadvantage. It IS about culture - I came from a background where getting an education was NOT encouraged. And, no, you cannot necessarily hide the fact that you are poor. Studies have shown that people with bad teeth don't get good jobs and are discriminated against for various things such as promotions for which they are otherwise qualified. The significance of this is that the poor overwhelmingly have awful, or nonexistant, dental care and, thus, have awful teeth. Add to that speech patters, accents, clothing availibility (for job/admissions interviews), etc. and I can tell you it is extremely easy to pinpoint a poor person.

The premise of AA IS the problem - and it stems from people thinking, "Oh, poor me - nobody understands!"

And, might I point out - again - that my husband and his family certainly understand since they are, by AA definitions, URM's themselves. He is firmly against affirmitive action as a URM of an extremely disadvantaged background because he sees it for what it is.

[Rapunzel]

LDRO wrote:
Yeah, it sucks when you work your ass off get left in the dirt. But the reality in life is the people who feel shafted by AA are the ones who didn't get the job at Morgan Stanley and had to settle for Lehman brothers!


Ummmm..... No. The people who get shafted by being passed over simply because of the color of their skin or ethnicity are parents who have to support their children, poor kids who worked their butts off to rise above their poverty, and NORMAL, non-rich, often non-white (Asian for instance) people - including immigrants.

This I do not agree with. What kinds of jobs and situations are you thinking about?

Well, let's look at college admissions: Do you really believe that all white people are wealthy and/or have access to any college program they could desire? Where are you getting your misconceptions/stereotypes???

The people who get shafted by being passed over simply because of the color of their skin or ethnicity are NORMAL people - not some rich, white guys driving Porsches and living on 5th Avenue.

[Rapunzel]

I have to run to squash match but will return to discuss later.

Might I point out that the very little I know about "squash" is that it is a game for the wealthy and privileged.

Around here fun is playing basketball on a public court.

[Rapunzel]

I have to run to squash match but will return to discuss later.

Might I point out that the very little I know about "squash" is that it is a game for the wealthy and privileged.

Around here fun is playing basketball on a public court.

Groan. You win, Rapunzel, you're the poorest, most underprivileged person here.

Why do you always feel the need to attack people? Do you seriously wonder why you put people off so? For someone with such a "high IQ" you are socially waaaaay below average. Well, I suppose no one can have it all.

Perhaps we need to design a social skills affirmative action act in this forum for you.

You know, Annie, this person is trying to make it sound like no one can possibly know what it is like to be disadvantaged. And, I'm making the point that I DO know.

What is your problem with that?

The debate forum is not about "social skills" - it is about debating. If you don't like that then don't participate - especially don't whine about someone making their point. I realize that you and a few others do not like me - that's been made very clear in past confrontations. Perhaps you need to learn to open up your horizons and get along with others who do not share your same, exact, narrow set of opinions?

The reason why the UT system removed affirmitive action was because of a court case where a better qualified WHITE MALE candidate WAS passed over for admission to medical school simply because the other, lesser qualified candidate was classified as a URM. That case demonstrated that people ARE taking spots from better qualified candidates using the "race" card of affirmitive action.

It sounds to me as though the reason the UT system removed affirmitive action is that it was implemented inappropriately. While I'm not a huge fan of AA -- at least the way it currently works -- I don't think that admiting an obviously less-qualified candidate over a white person is the true intention of AA.

I honestly think this needs to be addressed starting in elementary school. If all kids had the opportunity for an equal education - then there wouldn't be the need to "even things out" in college. Not to mention that often times the kids who are true (or inappropriate) AA admits end up having a very difficult time in college b/c they were unprepared.

Danielle - don't stay away.

Around here fun is playing basketball on a public court.

Yeah - and I bet the ball is nearly flat, too.

[mommax3]

You know, Rapunzel, I grew up very poor myself and would venture a guess that you and I could go head to head regarding the deprivations we suffered as children. However, there IS a difference......I would NEVER equate my experiences to those of someone who is part of a minority group, because I have no idea what that is like. To say that bad teeth equals skin color......please.

I agree with Ladybug's assessment of your debating skills. For years, you have used personal attacks to deflect attention away from your weak arguments. You have cut and pasted so much stuff that you bore everyone to death, and you cut and run whenever someone makes a valid point that you can't counter. I would say that the one with narrow horizons is you, and I say this as someone who shares many (but not all) of your conservative opinions.

You have stated an opinion based on your husband's experiences. That is valid. However, your comparison of yourself to LDRO is NOT valid. Leave it there.

Sally

[Tenacious_D]

I have to run to squash match but will return to discuss later.

Might I point out that the very little I know about "squash" is that it is a game for the wealthy and privileged.

Around here fun is playing basketball on a public court.

Absolutely unnecessary. We can have a discussion but I refuse to be mocked because I like to experience different things. Now you know, squash is not just for the wealthy and privileged, it's for people who, like myself, suck at basketball.

[Tenacious_D]

You know, Annie, this person is trying to make it sound like no one can possibly know what it is like to be disadvantaged. And, I'm making the point that I DO know.

What is your problem with that?

The debate forum is not about "social skills" - it is about debating. If you don't like that then don't participate - especially don't whine about someone making their point. I realize that you and a few others do not like me - that's been made very clear in past confrontations. Perhaps you need to learn to open up your horizons and get along with others who do not share your same, exact, narrow set of opinions?[

That is far off. I am not trying to make a point about people not knowing what it is like to be disadvantaged. I am simply trying to explain why AA, if used properly, can work to benefit rather than hurt. Yes, there are people who hire people of color and women for the wrong reasons i.e. they need to fill a quota. That is NOT what I see as the positive aspects of AA. I do not believe that qualified candidates should be passed over for less qualified candidates but everyone's definition of "qualified" may vary. If I am hiring a person for my business, I am not going to simply pick the person with the highest GPA, I may consider personality, I may consider race and gender. I do agree that the people who are "hurt" (and I use this word lightly) the most are asian americans.

[Tenacious_D]

Anyone up for some drinks?

I played Rugby in college and after every match we would go drinking with our opponents. Anyone up for a virtual glass of wine or beer? That would be a nice end to the discussion/debate

[Gwendolyn]

Wow,
I go to work on my paper and...all hell breaks loose

Although there is a deep connection between poverty and race, poverty can be more effectually shed by a white person than a person of color. Whites are given access to a cultural capitol that allows us entrance to a multitude of institutions...including (especially) education. My husband and I both grew up poor...times when our families went hungry poor.

I hid that for a long time. then when I began doing work in urban schools, I thought that would be a way to relate...I even grew up in the same neighborhood as the students I was working with. It was a tough, but clear lesson. I was not the same and never would be the same. Although I went to the same public pool and even lived down the street from a few students, I no longer did. I was a doctoral student married to a doctor who had to drive 30 min south to reach the highschool. When I got a scholarship to the elite all girls high school, no one looked at me the way they looked at the black girl in our class (even though she had grown up in an affluent family). I was allowed a certain degree of mobility because of my whiteness.

That is the way poverty and race are not linked, but in so many other ways they are inextricable. Rapunzel, you are right, you don't have to be a person of color to be poor, but overwhelming the face of poverty is one of color...and incidentally it is female...

This year the supreme court ruled ambiguously that while giving extra points for "minority" status was unconstitutional, there is a real breakdown of representation in higher education institutions and proactive measures should be taken to promote diverse student bodies and faculty make-up.

I agree, the problem really starts at the elementary and secondary levels. I spend my days going from classroom to classroom. Observing and teaching in one of the most segregated cities in the nation. The inequities are staggering.

There are so many students who are accepted to college (with good/excellent SAT scores) but are ill prepared for the university classroom and drop out...affirmative action might have ensured admittance, but it can not solve the years of oppressive educational practices. For others it was the one moment when white wasn't prividleged...for a moment.