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Affirmative Action

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  • #31
    I find the issue of affirmative action a painful one because I am not content with the implementation of a program designed to meet goals that I cherish - - ending discrimination and ensuring more equal access to education and jobs. Those of you who are at loggerheads need to keep in mind that everyone - - LRDO, Rapunzel, etc - - may disagree on the details but we all share the ultimate goal of ending discrimination.

    I can share what I have seen and experienced in my tiny corner of the world. I grew up in a fairly low-income family where no one else had attended college. I went to an ivy league college and an ivy league grad school. Most often - - though certainly not always - - the minority students (the majority of whom were helped by AA) were at least middle-class and sometimes very affluent. A few students were wealthy, super-elite Africans (as in from Africa) who count under schools' diversity reporting. In other cases, middle-class students who had let's say a hispanic grandparent on one side of the family but looked like they were from Sweden rec'd scholarships and admissions assistance after checking that all important box (I understand that you can still self-identify as hispanic but in the sense that AA was conceived to address discrimination this never felt entirely right).

    MEANWHILE, I have not been to a McDonalds that isn't staffed almost entirely by black workers - - who presumably have rec'd jack in the way of AA assistance or anything else. Not to mention truly poor white students who are oftentimes not helped in either admissions or aid.

    My job experiences (nationally prominent business firms) reflected this same pattern of strong affirmative action assisting minority workers who were disproportionately from middle-class backgrounds - - and most of whom had already rec'd AA assistance in the college admissions process. In my (again narrow) work world, minority status is an incredible asset that can literally make a career - - I recognize that this is not true in every field or workplace but it is true in many.

    At this point, I still see a role for AA but I do think it should be income-based - - that is designed to help those who are poor or first-generation college, etc. I believe racial discrimination exists but I think an income-based approach would in fact sweep in many minority applicants since race and SES are tightly linked.

    As a final note, I think we will be FORCED to either switch to an income-based approach or end AA altogether. The reason for this is two-fold:
    1) the workforce prediction that the majority of Americans will be racially mixed due to marriage, exploding hispanic populations etc. within a few short decades and
    2) the recent advances in genetic profiling that indicate that even now we are racially mixed - - that most of us carry genetic material linked to africans or asians - - and that someone may appear black but really be predominantly asian in the genetic sense. How do you resolve that on a college application!

    Interesting times . . .

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    • #32
      oops, the above post is from me (sms92). I didn't realize I hadn't logged in.

      Comment


      • #33
        Well said Caitlein and sms92.

        Danielle, don't stay away. What has taken place here is silly. It's too bad people can't just debate and leave the personal attacks alone.

        Your thoughts are valid and I personally appreciate your ability to make your point and not intentionally hit below the belt. Bravo.
        Flynn

        Wife to post training CT surgeon; mother of three kids ages 17, 15, and 11.

        “It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” —Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets " Albus Dumbledore

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        • #34
          I first want to commend those who deseve it for their respectful, thoughtful and relevant input - no matter which side of the debate they fall on. I also want to curse you all for distracting me from my work with such a compelling thread

          Okay, back to fixing the state of inner-city public education so that, one day, AA won't be necessary.

          Cheers! :~

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          • #35
            Originally posted by dayisme
            I first want to commend those who deseve it for their respectful, thoughtful and relevant input - no matter which side of the debate they fall on. I also want to curse you all for distracting me from my work with such a compelling thread

            Okay, back to fixing the state of inner-city public education so that, one day, AA won't be necessary.

            Cheers! :~
            From having subbed in an urban district this year while the Mrs. does her internship year, I would like to state that I don't think most of the problems in urban schools stem from the urban schools themselves. I think the teachers are qualified and work hard. I know that I am exhausted after a day of yelling at kids to stay in the room and to turn off their ipods. I think most of the problem stems from the home environment of these students. There is no discipline or respect for the teacher or the educational system. After my daily attempts at keeping order fail, I send the students to the office and then they send them right back. I feel that a dress code would help public schools. I am not sure how I feel about corporal punishment, but I know that it could be useful in some instances. Today, I witnessed a fight between two girls in front of the high schools' office. Sure they will be suspended, but that is more of a reward to those who don't want to be in school anyway. You can't expect a teacher with 20-30 kids per class 7 hours a day to undo an upbringing of failed parenting at home.

            Sure, there are some well behaved kids who want to learn, but they are the minority.
            Husband of an amazing female physician!

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            • #36
              Laker you are so right in respect to teachers. If our SO's want to complain about hours...take that and then add an embarassing salary to boot. I am never ready to hear about irritating patients after a full day of teaching...O.K. dear imagine a classroom with 30 people needing something from you, wanting individual attention and behaving in a generally antagonistic way...

              However; I feel it is simplistic to say it's the parents or home life. I know all parents want their children to succeed, but the majority of them are working hard (often more than one job) to make ends meet. Think about how hard that day for all of us when you spend a little more than you budgeted at the grocery store and you star to mentally calculate where that money is going to come from...maybe you are less patient with your family that day. We all will move beyond this struggle and join an elite economic class at the top of the worlds population...most parents will struggle like this their whole lives with no end in sight. They can't say, "when training is over." Everytime I wonder WTF with a parent, I take a step back and recognize that they have thei own struggle that make make them seem inaccessible, but by and large I don't think that "the home" is the problem.

              I am also not suggesting that teachers are the problem...This is a system of oppression that affects everyone...including teachers. Jonothan Kozol (Also wrote about heath care Amazing Grace) has a wonderful book called Savage Inequalities that (although a decade or so old) is a gut wrenching account of american schools...by the way the gut wrenching part of re-reading this book 20 years later is realizing that things have gotten worse...

              As long as schooling is tied to property tax and government continually interfeares with policy without investing in follow through...the conservative wish for vouchers will become a no brainer...no one will want to send their kids to public school...only those that can't make it with vouchers will be forced to attend schools with lacking materials, run down buildings, and uncertified teachers...

              So, I realize I opened a whole new area of debate...put that in your pipe and smoke it
              Gwen
              Mom to a 12yo boy, 8yo boy, 6yo girl and 3yo boy. Wife to Glaucoma specialist and CE(everything)O of our crazy life!

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              • #37
                Last post on education... Here in West Michigan, Kalamazoo has received a nice private donation called the Kalamazoo Promise to pay for college tuition for any graduate from the Kalamazoo Public Schools. This is a great way to improve the public schools
                Husband of an amazing female physician!

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                • #38
                  That is a fabulous grant / donation!

                  I agree with Caitlin -- I'm not knocking the teachers out there AT ALL. It's a job I wouldn't want (esp. high school -- I knew I didn't like that age range when I WAS that age), and almost always quite thankless. It's the schools that these kids have to attend. I'm not an oprah devotee, but I did watch the 2 part series she did on schools recently, and the differences between the two schools were appalling. It's hard to expect a high school kid to push and work for what little there is good in a place like that for their "future benefit". Most high schoolers just aren't that far sighted. I know I wasn't and I was in a good school district.

                  The education available has to be more equal to all. The problem is that this will be hard to achieve. The folks who pay the taxes to be in a "superior" school system (myself included) aren't going to want to see the quality of their schools diminish to more properly fund other schools. And I don't see anyone in DC coming up with $ to properly fund "superior" schools across the board.

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                  • #39
                    They can't even fund the schools in DC, let alone their own districts.

                    and the charter schools have been pretty much an abject failure. Every few weeks or so there's another story about the admins taking the money or the students failing or the building closing for some reason or another.

                    We have an excellent new Superintendent and he's kicking ass. First weeks on the job there were a couple schools that didn't open on time. He fired the principals. (like in any other business!!) People's jaws dropped. Then, this past summer his suppliers told him that they'd ordered the new textbooks on time for all of the schools and there were a bunch of schools that didn't get them in time for the first day of schools. He fired the administrative people AND the suppliers.

                    If he can continue to expect better things from everyone, I have hope. He's also firing all of the teachers that have failed to get their licenses AND he's completely rejected the lame standards we had for some seriously stringent ones. and this man does not tolerate truancy either. According to an article in today's Post, he's got the truancy officers and judges meeting with the kids AND their parents once a week for twelve weeks. and it seems to be helping. It's also allowing parents who need help to get it. (One kid was truant because his mom was really sick and they didn't know how to access the Medicaid system to get her additional nursing care.)

                    I can see a light for DC, if Supt. Janney can stick it out.

                    Jenn

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                    • #40
                      I'm about to get on my volunteer soapbox again.

                      I think another major difference between "good" schools and "bad" schools is the level of parent involvement - both physical and financial. We've got good schools here. Our schools are FULL of parents filling the jobs that have to be done but can't be paid. They staff the library, the clinic, the cafeteria, recess, art room, music room, etc. The teachers are not bogged down in busy work and have help whenever they need it. The parents also kick in funds at a staggering rate. The PTO and local Dad's club have funded computer labs, playgrounds, phone system upgrades, field trips, and even salaries. We are VERY lucky. We have well off families and parents that have extra time.

                      I don't think "bad" schools have this benefit. I think they lack this support system. I've been trying to figure out if I could convince parents here to "adopt" an urban school to assist. It's a tough sell because I don't think people are as motivated when it's not their child's school. Of course, parents have their own motivations for getting in to the schools. (Like checking up on the teachers and their children! ) I'm sure teachers are annoyed at times by all the parent overinvolvement -- but I think the benefits outweigh the meddling. Also, the meddling may grate on the teachers nerves - but few questionable incidents get by a pack of nosy parents. That keeps the standards at the schools high. I'm certain that this invisible help system plays a role in separating "good" and "bad" schools. I've also been impressed that in this small town, the school board and the superintendent are all parents of students currently in the school system. That gives them a personal stake in all their decisions. It also bonds the average parent and the decision makers. That's it. My two cents.

                      Jumping off the soapbox.....
                      Angie
                      Gyn-Onc fellowship survivor - 10 years out of the training years; reluctant suburbanite
                      Mom to DS (18) and DD (15) (and many many pets)

                      "Where are we going - and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I haven't been following this thread, so I missed the transition from affirmative action to schools (though I see how they relate), but..

                        Originally posted by jloreine
                        They can't even fund the schools in DC, let alone their own districts.

                        and the charter schools have been pretty much an abject failure. Every few weeks or so there's another story about the admins taking the money or the students failing or the building closing for some reason or another.

                        Jenn
                        That sounds exactly like the situation here! Only difference is we can't seem to keep a superintendent here, they get a new one every two years or so, and then they are at odds with the board and they eventually leave or are fired. End result is that the kids suffer because our school district doesn't have it's sh*t together. We're trying to stick it out, but I doubt we'll send our kids to public high school, unless they get it worked out in the next 8 years.

                        I agree wholeheartedly with Angie's point about parental involvement. I'd say about 5-10% of the parents are really involved in my daughter's school (me included), and we are trying hard to make our school great, but our particular school is one of few in the district that has even that kind of support. I can only imagine what the school would be like if every parent were just as involved--probably my kid wouldn't have to cross a STREET to get to the school playground!
                        Awake is the new sleep!

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                        • #42
                          I completely agree, Angie! The reason our neighborhood school works is because of the time and money that parents donate. The school district here is in all sorts of trouble, the origin of which I don't totally understand. Our school foundation (yes, our public school has a foundation ) raises over $150K per year. The principal and teachers are great but that extra money goes a LONG way to setting the school apart from the other schools in the district. Part of the money our school raises, about one third, goes back to a general fund for the other schools (they apply for grants).

                          I like your idea of adopting an urban school. And...some of our meddling parents could use another outlet.

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                          • #43
                            Why don't you get started on that Angie
                            Instead of going to the grocery store?
                            Angie
                            Gyn-Onc fellowship survivor - 10 years out of the training years; reluctant suburbanite
                            Mom to DS (18) and DD (15) (and many many pets)

                            "Where are we going - and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

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                            • #44


                              Back kinda/sorta on topic: Did you see that harvard announced free tuition for families with incomes under 60K and reduced tuition for families with 80K or less per year? I think that's fabulous. Of course, it's not going to help with the lower schools, but I hate that the big name schools have always been the big money schools as well.
                              Angie
                              Gyn-Onc fellowship survivor - 10 years out of the training years; reluctant suburbanite
                              Mom to DS (18) and DD (15) (and many many pets)

                              "Where are we going - and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I just applied to the Texas Teaching Fellows program because I'm so tired of hearing about how terrible San Antonio schools are and not doing anything about it. I have a flippin' Master's in Education! I should probably use it at some point, huh? Anyway, in 20 weeks they have you ready to start student teaching- and of course I'll focus on Special Education but my real dream is to teach English.

                                Jenn

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