touchy subject...tread carefully

[Flynn]

Okay -- I'm curious what people will say to this topic.

I know a few families who seem to be "at their max" right now with regard to functioning...kids ....money....patience....etc. They are good people. I definitely like them very much.

Both of the women just announced that they were pregnant.

One of the women already asked me to help out during the later half of her pregnancy.

I have some conflicting emotions I'm a little surprised by.

#1 -- A baby is a blessing. All the kids in these families are good kids.

#2 -- I have no idea if either of these families have birth control issues that conflict with faith...etc.

#3 -- I am all for helping out, however it seems like a one way street at times because I have less children than either family so I help but they are overloaded so often I would never ask for help. (I realize that's partly MY issue. )

#4 -- If you are so overloaded with the family you do have -- is adding to the chaos the best course of action? (I'm trying to carefully choose my words here but nothing sounds exactly like I want it to....)

#5 -- What is a parent's responsibility to the children they do have with regard to care, time with family that is not chaotic, and adding siblings etc...


Just chewing on these issues personally.

To each his/her own -- until you can't handle "your own" and you need outside help as a rule....???

Like I said, it's a layered issue.

If I've said anything that TOTALLY pissed someone off, that wasn't my intention. I just wanted to dialogue about it so I could explore my seeminly conflicting emotions here...

We discussed this (or threads of this) awhile back as a spin off of the Duggar Family special. This is what I said then, and it still holds true for me now.

Knowing what it takes for me to be raising my own two, I would ALMOST agree with you, Heidi, but I think it's really a personal choice. I have a friend who is one of 8, and all of them have grown up to be very good people with interesting lives and career paths. All of them enjoy their big family, and not ONE of them did chores (crazy if you ask me). Their mom felt kids should be kids and she did EVERYTHING. And she is a happy woman. Her parents are lovely, kind, generous people - and I have no idea how they did it. When we were in high school I pretty much thought her mom was a nut (always smiling), and now I know there has got to be an organizational genius in there. She never looked stressed -- it wasn't a June Cleaver thing at all, either. her parents just made certain choices. They had awful carpeting b/c they wanted cheap and sturdy, they had ugly wall paper because they knew there were 4 boys and 4 girls tromping through, so why spend on the good stuff? They gave very small gifts - a $25 watch is what my friend got for graduation, and the kids put themselves through college - but all but one went! They all worked in high school and bought their first cars (but dad did pay the insurance). None are particularly materialistic, only one is divorced , and the maximum # of kids any of them have is 2. Interestingly enough - none of the girls had kids before they were 30, and only 2 of them are married (although 1 of the single ones is the divorced one).

Is it a life I'd want to live? No. But the kids all come home for weddings and family events, the girls all keep in touch regularly and the rest of the family via dad's email updates (which I'm honored to be included in). These two people raised an amazing batch of red headed kids -- I wouldn't do it, but I marvel at them.

Do I think people should have more kids when they already can't handle what they've got? No. But I also don't think that asking for help at the end of a pregnancy is indicative of that kind of behavior. As far as "non-chaos" time ... it's probably not all it's chalked up to be. The family I referenced there never had much time for sitting and reading, story telling or the like -- but they are incredibly close-knit. I don't know HOW they did it.

[Momo]

Did these couples marry young or were they older? Did they know they wanted a big family? The reason I bring this up is that some of us (like DH & myself) didn't get married until we were in our 30s (he was 33, I was 30) we knew we wanted to have @ least 4 maybe 5 kids. For that reason we knew we had to "get busy", because spreading out kids when you are already in your 30's IMO is a little crazy . I really hope to be done & have the IUD in place by the time I'm say 38!
If we had taken a job near family and friends things wouldn't have seemed so overwhelming...but alas we are 2,000 miles from the ones we would easily trust w/ our kiddos, especially at such tender ages!
Dh is working on getting a PA and I am actually having a 20 year old over this week to try out as a mom's helper. I'm hoping DH will eventually let me hire her as a day nanny, pending the chemistry is there for all of us! After my posting the "Please tell" me topic, I just decided to be proactive & arrange the working interview w/ her, because I want the kids and I to have a fuller life! I am so thankful DH has been successful and these are actually REAL possibilities for us instead of dreams!
I agree w/ jenn on the asking for help in the later half of a pregnancy...everyone can use & a lot of people need it no matter what the size of thier family is...feel honored she asked and just do what you are able to do!

[Flynn]

I had forgotten that we had talked about this fairly recently. My bad.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[mommax3]

Just another thought.....everybody has a different tipping point. I have more tolerance for chaos than many people I know, but I definitely have friends/aquaintances who make me look very anal and uptight. I think a lot of it is how you are wired, and also how things were in the family you grew up in, and whether or not you want to replicate that experience, or reject it.

I have to admit that the being asked to help thing would rile me a little. I would try to let it go, though, if the person was a good enough friend. If they were "expecting" my help, I would probably get very busy all of the sudden, but if they were just clearly overwhelmed and needed a hand, I would step up.

I have struggled with this one too, Flynn. I think part of *my* issue has been that deep down, I am a little jealous of people who are brave enough to take the plunge and have more kids, knowing ahead of time that life will be crazy. DH and I don't have that kind of courage, and there are days when I wonder what blessings we have missed by not being willing to "ride the rollercoaster" (from the movie Parenthood) and have another child.

Then there are the other days.........

Be true to yourself, and give what you can to your friends.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

I am not offended by anything you've said (and we do have a big family... I'm sure some onlookers think "why" when they see us on a bad day too )

Like Sally, I guess I also have a high threshold for chaos....I know that I am pretty laid back about a lot of things that would get other moms upset....(and I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with them as parents either...I'll piggyback on Sally's hardwiring comment )

We have moments here where I'm absolutely overwhelmed and think "what were we thinking" .... and I had those moments when I only had two children....We probably ARE overloaded with children right now...and at times I do feel really overwhelmed...but at the same time, I wouldn't trade this special breed of chaos for the world. Somone peering in from the outside though might say:

:! -




I have no idea how I am perceived in that regard.

In any case, the whole asking for help thing....honestly...I'd say "No". You don't owe any explanations or excuses either.

#5 -- What is a parent's responsibility to the children they do have with regard to care, time with family that is not chaotic, and adding siblings etc...

Well, I can speak for us....we have family movie night once a week (that would be the same whether we had 1 child or 12 <thank God we don't have 12> and Sundays are family days...no friends over, etc and we go for walks or on outings together.

Because our children aren't quintuplets, they are at different stages and their care can be tailored to meet their needs. Zoe and Aidan still get that undivided little kid time when the others are at school. I go to Alex's soccer games/practices and do his reading minutes with him rach night...just he and I. Andrew graces me with sax solos and we talk a lot about his feelings the play he is in and other stuff 'as needed'. Amanda is in that inbetween time where she sometimes wants her own time and sometimes wants to hang out with me...We try and go out for 'special time' alone together whenever we can.

Don't negate what children from big families get from their sibling interactions...Sure, if I'm busy with the baby I might not be able to do something with Aidan...but Andrew will step in with his favoriter muppet movie and the two of them will snuggle up in the playroom together....priceless

Not defending...just a view from the other side......

But...say no.

kris

edited tyo add..please forgive type-os ...one-handed typing with baby on lap

[DCJenn]

As everyone knows, we have one, only ever wanted one and can't even begin to fathom what more than one would do the the happy little equilibrium we've got going.

Glad we've got him, glad I only have to deal with diapers, terrible twos, puberty, dating, etc. with one kid...

We probably do have more time to offer to help. But I would be mightly offended if it was assumed that I'd pitch in because I "only" have one kid. My one kid is a mighty busy little guy some day! Like Nellie, I'm the kind of person who might suddenly get real busy. My theory is that I'll happy offer my services and support to anyone who needs it. But you know what they say about people who assume!

I'm amazed at those of you who can manage more than one. We're thrilled to have our one but I know we'd have been happy without him, too. (does that sound bad? I wouldn't trade him for the world, but I know that we would have had a totally different equally great life childfree. We actually HAD a totally great child free life and I can't think that would have changed.) It is a completely mind-altering thing though- one day you're a couple and the next- bam- you're parents! (except in our case the "bam" was in Russian.) I think we'd both agree that it was the best decision we ever made.

Semi-off topic, we have friends who adopted from Korea- they got their first son right before we left for court in Russia. They got their second son two weeks ago. (and by got I mean- "go to the airport and pick up your new child") and are 14 weeks pregnant with twins. yup- that's four under three. (the oldest one won't turn three until after the twins are born.) Rick said if that ever happened to us, he's buying two motorcycles, riding them at the same time, while he takes up smoking.

Jenn

[/i]

[houseelf]

Flynn,

I'm actually glad that you brought this topic up because it hits so close to my heart. I silently grapple with this issue on a daily basis.

Regularly I post at this site comments like: "My life is overwhelming!", "My husband is never around", "I'm a quasi-single parent", "We owe over $200,000 in student loans".

I have two fabulous, healthy kids that have shown me more love and life than anyone could ever hope for in a single life time. They are both in a really great place in their lives right now. I enjoy working and am interested in eventually taking my career on a different path.

I honestly think that a third child has the potential to spin us off into an unmanageable situation. The sum of all of the above statements should be: "Honey, it's time for that vasectomy that you promised you would get when we decided we were done!"


....And yet.... Neither of us can bring ourselves to say "done". The thought of never hearing our newborn's first cry again is too much to bear. The thought of never bringing another baby home from the hospital again takes me to tears. I would never look at my third child and say, "Gee, I *really* regret having you". As you said, a baby is always a blessing.

The outcome depends on whether I let logic or faith decide. Does the head or heart rule? I can tell you FOR SURE that if we announced that we were pregnant my mom would put her best face forward and congratulate us, but her worry would be palpable. If I were a guest on Dr. Phil, he'd not hesitate to tell me to take the responsible path. Many of my nonmedical friends in more egalitarian marriages might even have hushed conversations outside of my presence wondering how we were going to make this work.

I think that Sally said it best:

I have struggled with this one too, Flynn. I think part of *my* issue has been that deep down, I am a little jealous of people who are brave enough to take the plunge and have more kids, knowing ahead of time that life will be crazy. DH and I don't have that kind of courage, and there are days when I wonder what blessings we have missed by not being willing to "ride the rollercoaster" (from the movie Parenthood) and have another child.

Kelly

[planet]

Agree with above. I struggle with this. I know I want more children. I know I won't ask for more help than we already get from family and would never ask friends. Where does this leave us?

Well, I have always felt strongly that "it takes a village" . . . until someone asks me for help. We had a friend ask DH and I to babysit their infant on a Saturday night when DH only had two Saturday nights a month off and was working crazy hours AND I was working about six days per week. I said no and had to control myself from putting a hell in front of that.

I would guess that the frequency of people asking you to help out is much worse if you are a SAHM - - the assumption seems to be that you're not "working" and your time is perceived as less valuable. That would bother me.

As for having kids and how many, I don't feel I have much expertise to offer. I think some of our societal unease about larger families has to do with the current cultural conception that your child has a whole smorgasbord of enrichment needs and the parents' role is to be the primary supplier of those needs. As a childess observer and general grump, I have sometimes felt that the primary unmet need in the kids in my affluent neighbhorhood is the need to realize that the world does not revolve around them! That said, the one situation where watching friends has more children bothers me is when there is a major marital issue and the couple is using the baby to try to patch things up and sustain the marriage. Maybe I am being too judgmental and these situations work out too . . . I guess we need empirical data.

[PrincessFiona]

I think some of our societal unease about larger families has to do with the current cultural conception that your child has a whole smorgasbord of enrichment needs and the parents' role is to be the primary supplier of those needs.

This really struck me...It is an issue that also bothers me a lot as a parent. For whatever reason, society, or we mothers put an incredible pressure on each other to indulge every want/need/activity possible. I really fight this battle because my children each spend a lot of time at home fighting with each other :>, paying, watching tv, hanging out than their same age counterparts. I just refuse to be a part of the culture that we've created. Maybe having 5 children makes that easier

Most of the people I know have their children enrolled in daily (or almost daily) activities in the after school/evening hours. These kids go from girl schouts to Karate to swimming lessons to extra science classes etc etc etc. It makes my head spin FOR the kids....and really, besides the fact that these classes are all expensive and I have no clue how they pay for them, I just wonder "why"? Why not stop and smell the roses...play in the backyard, go for a walk in the neighborhood...

Kids aren't allowed to be kids anymore (and we moms all need prozac!!!!) and this bothers me so much...more than I can ever express. I see my 10 year old daughter under pressure to have the right shoes, right hair-do, to wear make-up and date boys. 10 and 11 year olds bring their cell phones and mp3 players to school. Where am I going with this...I'm sorry to have veered so far off track.

I think we're the only family in America that sits down each night to watch one episode of "The Muppet Show" before bed I just want simpler times for my children and as a mother!

Sorry for hijacking and taking this thread off course. Please continue where sms92 left off.

kris

[SuzySunshine]

That is an interesting topic you bring up Kris - there was a study released this week by pediatricians that actually say you should just let your kids play - stop over scheduling them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15186964/

We plan to only have two children and not because we have anything against larger families we just think that two are more manageable and since we won't have our first until we're 30 or 31 we don't want to be having new ones in our late 30's.

[Flynn]

We plan to only have two children and not because we have anything against larger families we just think that two are more manageable and since we won't have our first until we're 30 or 31 we don't want to be having new ones in our late 30's.

This is pretty much where we are. Plus, we are in such a good place with our kids now, bringing another infant into the mix would rock the boat more than I'm willing to admit.

I agree with the problems regarding over scheduling. I saw it a lot as a high school teacher. Kids were frantic and then they'd get a D on a test and Mom and Dad would call this big meeting to find out "what is going on here!!!!" Just wacky in my book but I do see how it happens.