Doctor/Lawyer Couples

[MrsK]

Is it just me, or is this a particularly difficult career match? Hubby and I have been trying to network with other DO or MD/JD couples. Any body out there? Any one that can give advise or sympathy or just wanna scream about relocating a law career? Licensure in multiple states?

[Vanquisher]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

I know a few. It is difficult, especially when some states require you to pass the bar exam again. My friend here relocated from another state and had to pass the bar. It took her two tries, and she ended up working for a firm in a type of law that she didn't love. It's a huge sacrifice, and it sucks. Good luck!

[Michele]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

We're a MD/DVM couple and it did kinda suck getting a new license when we moved for residency.....esp since Louisiana had a funny "shadowing" requirement. Also, since my gig here is temporary I'm kinda limited to what's available instead of being able to make changes on a partner track. One bonus though is that even part-time work pays well so we aren't experiencing the financial struggles that many resident families face.

[houseelf]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

There are a couple of MD/JD couples on this site. I am licensed in MN and OH. Currently I am staying at home with the kids.

In our case, the dual career thing didn't work out so well because we both desperately wanted kids AND my husband did not choose the easiest of career paths. The area of law that most interested me was Family, a subspecialty that is particularly dependent on developing a network within a community. This is particularly hard when you have one foot out the door for an impending move.

I'm o.k. with not ever working in law again. It was never my passion, just a good gig. I realized that walking away is a big risk, but it is kind of where my life has lead me.

Kelly

[MrsK]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

Kelly, where are you? Did you get your OH license first or the MN license? Have you attempted Admission on Motion?

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

We're an MD/PhD (him) - JD (me) couple. I am licensed in Texas. I work as a federal law clerk in St. Louis (federal law clerks just have to hold a license--it does not matter from what state). I returned to clerking from private practice when we relocated for my DH's residency. Practically speaking, it would have been awful to have moved from my firm in Dallas to a firm in St. Louis. I was a senior-level associate at a Big Firm and it would have completely messed up my career. Lost contacts, starting over with reputation, etc. Would have set me back on the partnership track since you often lose years when you lateral-in, and--maybe worst of all--the pay here in St. Louis is crap compared to Dallas. So I would have taken a major pay hit! Luckily, I was never "into" making partner. I always wanted to return to clerking when I could (I had clerked for a US Dist judge right out of law school). Better hours, less stress, intellectually challenging. Good gig.

Because I got a clerking position, I did not deal with the stress of worrying about re-taking the bar when we moved. First, I could have waived into the bar here (admission upon motion),because I'd worked long enough to meet that requirement. Second, I have clerked since I got here, so it was never necessary. I never went through the headache and expense of changing my licensure, though.

I don't know if MD-JD matches are especially difficult--that is, any more difficult than any marriage involving a lawyer. But I could see that--big egos, big opinions, big attitudes. Personally, I have to be very careful about checking my "cross-examination" at the front door. And it makes me NUTS when DH (or, for that matter, DS) does not think "logically" (like a lawyer). I can't bear to have an argument with someone who "hates confrontation" or who can't argue well. Sometimes, I can't bear to waste my time. Yeah, come to think about it, I wouldn't want to be married to me!! Not that my husband's career lends to being the ultimate mate, either, though. He is short-tempered and impatient with anyone who he thinks is an idiot.

Weirdly, we're very happily married. I think it is because we have very thick skins and easily forgive each other.

I don't think that MD - JD couples are all that uncommon. My DH's program has 16 residents and four of them are married to lawyers (and not very many of them are married, period!) and one attending is married to a lawyer, too. Or maybe it is just common for NSGs to marry lawyers (??).

[MrsK]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

I don't know if MD-JD matches are especially difficult--that is, any more difficult than any marriage involving a lawyer. But I could see that--big egos, big opinions, big attitudes. Personally, I have to be very careful about checking my "cross-examination" at the front door. And it makes me NUTS when DH (or, for that matter, DS) does not think "logically" (like a lawyer). I can't bear to have an argument with someone who "hates confrontation" or who can't argue well. Sometimes, I can't bear to waste my time. Yeah, come to think about it, I wouldn't want to be married to me!! Not that my husband's career lends to being the ultimate mate, either, though. He is short-tempered and impatient with anyone who he thinks is an idiot.

Oh, I didn't mean that JD/MD are a difficult marriage match. Marriage is fabulous. I meant that it's a difficult career match because JD careers are not easy to relocate. I became a partner in a national firm about 2 years ago. So, my firm is working with me on the relocation but I'm finding bar licensure (even on motion) to be very difficult. I'm actually commuting! Not exactly what I expected during my first year of marriage. I was curious to know how other JD Medical Spouses worked out the relocation. Sounds like most folks take a step back or leave private pratice. . . not very encouraging.

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

I don't know if MD-JD matches are especially difficult--that is, any more difficult than any marriage involving a lawyer. But I could see that--big egos, big opinions, big attitudes. Personally, I have to be very careful about checking my "cross-examination" at the front door. And it makes me NUTS when DH (or, for that matter, DS) does not think "logically" (like a lawyer). I can't bear to have an argument with someone who "hates confrontation" or who can't argue well. Sometimes, I can't bear to waste my time. Yeah, come to think about it, I wouldn't want to be married to me!! Not that my husband's career lends to being the ultimate mate, either, though. He is short-tempered and impatient with anyone who he thinks is an idiot.

Oh, I didn't mean that JD/MD are a difficult marriage match. . . . I was curious to know how other JD Medical Spouses worked out the relocation. Sounds like most folks take a step back or leave private pratice. . . not very encouraging.

Ah...sorry. I misunderstood what you meant. I'm tired--new baby in the house--serious sleep deprivation.

FWIW, I would not be discouraged. Personally, I didn't walk away from it because I had to; I walked away because I wanted something different. If that's what you want, you can make it work. I've known lawyer spouses who've spent the first ten years of their practice moving around due to the spouse's residency/fellowship/attendinghood Sounds like you are valuable to your firm and they want things to work. Worst comes to worst, you retake the bar. It's painful, but it's less painful than throwing away a career you love.

[MrsK]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

Congratulations on the new baby.

I've finished my first 10 years of practice and I'm now entering into my next 10. Statistically, I'm at the juncture (or maybe a little past the juncture) where women tend to leave the profession. My firm has 285 attorneys and only 16 female partners. I'm doing my best to hang in there. I've done well thus far following a straight path, committing myself to the firm, and being a single gal. Now I have the commitments of marriage and this relocation is really throwing me for a loop!

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

Congratulations on the new baby.

I've finished my first 10 years of practice and I'm now entering into my next 10. Statistically, I'm at the juncture (or maybe a little past the juncture) where women tend to leave the profession. My firm has 285 attorneys and only 16 female partners. I'm doing my best to hang in there. I've done well thus far following a straight path, committing myself to the firm, and being a single gal. Now I have the commitments of marriage and this relocation is really throwing me for a loop!

Sounds like my old firm. Big international firm hubbed in Houston. When I started in the Dallas office (150 attorneys, maybe), there were...I don't know...maybe 3 female partners (none in my section). And none of those few female partners had been "raised up" to partnership after tracking through as associates--all had been lateralled in as partners. A few more female partners came in (and even a few were "made" from below) while I was there, but...only about 20% of ALL the Firm's attorneys were female...and clearly a much smaller number were partners. I know what you had to do to get where you are. It involved a lot of sacrifices. Congratulations on your accomplishment!

Big Firm life is NOT family friendly. But, at least at my old firm, they were pretty honest about things. They wanted female attorneys and were willing to offer flex-time, etc., but if you wanted to really make it, you had to be hard-core. Really, really hard-core. One of the female partners (a very accomplished woman!) out of the Houston office spoke with a group of us female associates one time, and basically advised: outsource any part of your life that you can--cooking, cleaning, childcare, errands, etc. And she explained how she made it work (she had a couple of kids)--she hired essentially round-the-clock childcare help.

That presentation was a important experience for me. It made me think about certain realities. First, you have to make a LOT of money to be able to do that. So you can't just meander along as a mediocre attorney--you've got to be a rainmaker or have some other kind of heft. Which means, your job is your life. Second, I thought long and hard about it, and decided that I didn't want that. I didn't want to outsource everything else in subjugation to the job. It's great for women who want to--I just decided I didn't.

That presentation was followed a couple of weeks later by another clarifying experience for me. The section head of my department recommended that you can "find time for your family" by integrating them into your business development activities!! He was responding to another female associate's question at the year-end retreat as to how we could better manage work/bus-dev demands with outside-life demands. He explained that his wife (no kids at home) just LOVED to socialize and that's how they spent time together--schmoozing clients. It became clear that what I needed was...a wife. And a full-time babysitter so that I could bring my wife to lots of bus-dev events.

But, I ALWAYS appreciated the fact that the partners for whom I worked took me seriously and treated me well, and that the atmosphere at the Firm didn't pull any punches in terms of what it took to be a real player there. They were welcoming of women who wanted to work hard and were willing to accommodate mommy trackers, but they also didn't mislead people with stupid pitches about how they were aiming for "work/life balance."

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

Sorry I haven't been around - we are mid-relocation.

We are another MD/ JD combo pack. Is it a tough mix as far as career? Oh hell yeah. When DH and I first met, I was kicking it on Wall Street and he was contemplating giving up his practice as a DC to go back to medical school. He HATED my hours back then and the thought of me relocating at that point in my career was unfathomable. We parted ways for almost a decade.

I am one of those "took a step back" people, but it wasn't for DH's career, at least not initially. I was literally getting sick from working too much. I decided to take some time to work on my health and do some major reassessment. DH and I happened to run into each other - and now we have been together almost 2 1/2 years.

Now, if he wants to travel :huh: sure, fine with me! He wants to do locums for a while? :huh: excellent. He wants to be and adjust professor out of the country - Would I have done this with my career in full swing - no way. Could I have? No. My position was not portable at that time and not willing to give it up.

I do think the JD/ MD mix is difficult if both careers are a priority. Somebody has to give somewhere. I don't mean to sound discouraging, but with licensure for you both it becomes difficult [more for the JD than the MD]. DH and I have made a lot of compromises to accommodate what we both want. It just so happened that the timing was right for my career to be on hold.

Best of luck to you and again - welcome!!

[MrsK]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

Abigail, this is brilliant. My firm just started a "women's initiative" and I've found myself on the work/life balance sub committee. It is really difficult to come up with a true balanced hours policy that advances attorneys working less than full time. Do you mind if I share your letter with my group? (Of course, I won't name names.)

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

Abigail, this is brilliant. My firm just started a "women's initiative" and I've found myself on the work/life balance sub committee. It is really difficult to come up with a true balanced hours policy that advances attorneys working less than full time. Do you mind if I share your letter with my group? (Of course, I won't name names.)

No problem.

We had the exact same thing--I think it was even called a "women's initiative." I HATED IT. HATED, HATED, HATED it. It wasn't really about initiative, though. It was about accommodation. It was assumed that women needed accommodation, special help, etc. to stick around. Grrrr! I worked my ass off to be "one of the guys"--not literally one of the guys, but to have earned a chair at the table. You don't do that by constantly focusing on the fact you aren't male. You do that by working insane hours, producing great work, and understanding how to promote client relationships--by being hard-core. However, being required to attend mandatory "estrogen meetings" completely undermines those hard-core efforts. It makes you look like, simply because of your gender, you need special help--a support group, a mentor, "guidance." While I was being forced to endure yet another discussion of work/life balance, the male associates were billing time and schmoozing clients. There really were days when I thought, "Teaching me how to smoke a cigar or play golf--something that clients like!--really would serve my career here better..."

My Firm, like most firms, didn't "get it." They were focused on retaining women because their clients were demanding it (big corps like to look politically correct in hiring firms that have a lot of women). So they endlessly bent over backward to "accomodate" women and their perceived needs--to the resentment and consternation not of the male associates, but of the female associates who weren't having "balance" issues! How much does it suck for your male bosses to assume (and then base their client-contacts and work quality assignments on this assumption) that you'll be seeking mommy track because you have a uterus? Yet the firms can't figure out why they are continuing to hemmorage females. At the end of the day, a lot of women leave not because the firms aren't being accomodating--they leave because they are the type of people who don't want to NOT be a player. That is, they aren't the mommy-tracking sort. Rather than do something "half-assed" (or "reduced hours," etc.), they just go find something else to do. At least, that's why I left. I don't do anything half-assed (and that's not a self-compliment--if anything, it's kind of depressing.) I knew that if I mommy-tracked, I would end up with lesser quality work assignments from my bosses (that's what happens to part-timers) while working just as hard and getting paid less.

What the firms should be looking for is not endlessly accomodating women and their "needs," but finding and hiring women who WANT to be hard-core and then integrating them into the Old Boy system--not trying to provide a "parallel" but inherently less-respected alternative career tracks for women (which really just create the assumption--esp. if you're married--that you will eventually choose this non-partnership track).

But that's just me. Hey, good luck. I hope you're able to do something really productive and helpful in your position.

[MrsK]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

Wow! You're really hard core, Abigail. On one hand, we want to kick ass and succeed at the big firm. But on the other hand, we don't want to out-source our personal lives. I'm sure the men feel this too. Is there any place in a big firm for people that want to have a life?

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Doctor/Lawyer Couples

Wow! You're really hard core, Abigail. On one hand, we want to kick ass and succeed at the big firm. But on the other hand, we don't want to out-source our personal lives. I'm sure the men feel this too. Is there any place in a big firm for people that want to have a life?

I'm not that hard-core. I ultimately eft. I chose something else. I just remember how frustrating it was to know that you could handle whatever they dished out, but it was assumed that you needed help "balancing." I didn't want balance. I wanted to play the game...for a while.

Any placed at a Big Firm for people who want a life? I think a lot of it may have to do with your specialization. I'd say go into ERISA law. Man, those are happy, balanced people. Seriously. I don't know if it's that area of the law or what, but they are in demand and very normal, easy-going folks. I'd say do that kind of law.

I did corporate insolvency and pre-bankruptcy workouts. We are not a balanced bunch. But loved the work!!