Additional Match Stress: Applying to Law School

[MrsK]

I agree with just about everything that everybody has said on this.

I followed a less traditional path than GMW describes through law school and my career. I have the tombstones, etc. like the attorney that you work for has and I am considering a "mommy track" similar to hers though I cannot afford to drop out all together. I've also done the long distance marriage -- my first year of marriage -- to maintain my law career at BigLaw in another state and I am still struggling to make that work. I must tell you, the most miserable time in my entire life was when I was staying in a near-empty apartment 1200 miles away from my husband and dying from morning sickness. I love my work but that was so not worth it. I really resented the expense and hardship required to maintain my career and my marriage during my husband's internship. And then to have the real estate/law market crash too. It's been hell.

That said, you have to do what works for you. For the time being, I think that the seas of BigLaw are too rocky to predict. That straight path may not be there three years from now. Apply to the programs that you think will be best for you -- lifestyle, financially, achedemically, etc. There are many paths to partnership at BigLaw and mine was full of loops and zigzags -- which is fine as long as you arrive at your destination -- and your destination may change many times in 3 years too. Life at BigLaw is changing due to the economy, more women in the field, the internet, etc. You may be surprised at the opportunities (or lack thereof) that are available when you finish school.

[MarissaNicole]

My advice would be to go to the best law school where DH is (considering there is potential for jobs) because you have a good chance of getting a job because people know you are from the area. You may not be able to get a BigLaw job, but it will still be a legal job. And although the name helps, it may not help if you aren't flexible about going ANYWHERE (which you may not be able to because of your DH). My cousin went to Iowa, was at the top of his class, did law review, had an internship after 1L year, and clerked at a bigger firm after second year. The firm he clerked at decided they were not going to hire. He looked all over his third year and finally found a job clerking for a federal judge in Georgia. He had to uproot his whole family again (after uprooting them for lawschool). (So some of it will be out of your control - the market is totally oversaturated with attorneys).

It'll all work out, but don't be surprised it if is different than you had planned! Try not to worry too much because there are just too many unknown factors at this point.

[spotty_dog]

Then, I made a spreadsheet with DH's top 10 and all of the schools I'd apply to if he matches there.

You've mentioned the top 6; you've mentioned the top 10. How many programs did he rank? Because if you insist on covering your bases before the Match, cover ALL your bases. She's a fickle bitch, the Match, and she loves to throw you a curve ball.

Honestly, if there's one thing I've learned from the medical training process, it's not to spend time fretting over what you can't change. Both because we've been on the receiving end of so many curve balls, and because that's the way DH practices medicine. It's been drilled into him, so it's been drilled into me: if the test won't change the outcome or the plan for treatment, don't do the test. Sometimes more knowledge isn't better. Sometimes being overprepared is just throwing your energy into a black hole, you know?

[NYCHoosier]

You've mentioned the top 6; you've mentioned the top 10. How many programs did he rank? Because if you insist on covering your bases before the Match, cover ALL your bases. She's a fickle bitch, the Match, and she loves to throw you a curve ball.

Honestly, if there's one thing I've learned from the medical training process, it's not to spend time fretting over what you can't change. Both because we've been on the receiving end of so many curve balls, and because that's the way DH practices medicine. It's been drilled into him, so it's been drilled into me: if the test won't change the outcome or the plan for treatment, don't do the test. Sometimes more knowledge isn't better. Sometimes being overprepared is just throwing your energy into a black hole, you know?

He's ranking 19, but there are some city repeats... 13 cities, 9 of which are represented in the top 10. So, I think I'll fill out my list for the remaining tonight. I already have ideas in my head for the other 4 cities. In fact, potential law schools are why we switched the places of 11 and 12. But, it'll be helpful for me to write them down to have a better idea.

As for the test part... Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't want to not get into law school at all. In the #1 city, there's a mid-1st tier school and a 4th tier school, and according to the LSAC admissions grid, I should be a shoo-in at either. But if by some fluke, I get into, say, NYU Law but not the 1st tier school in the same city as DH, I'm not going to go to the 4th tier over NYU just to not have to do long distance. So I guess it could change the outcome. That's a highly unlikely scenario, but I think I'll just have to weigh the exact costs and benefits should those sorts of tricky situations arise.
That said, you guys have given me a lot to think about in regard to what the costs of long distance would be, which should help direct me on how to feel in 16 days. I'm a planner... and since I still have over 2 weeks left, I might start making flow charts for all the possible outcomes, haha (okay, okay, I don't have THAT much time on my hands). Instead I think I'll just start working on essays for the 3 schools I'm applying to regardless of the match.

[MarissaNicole]

Oh another thing which you may already know, but you can do up to a third of your credit/classes (1 year) at a different school than you get your diploma from. So you could always do your first year somewhere and then as long as you do well you can transfer into a better school. I had several of my friends transfer from Northern Illinois to the University of Illinois after first year. And me on the other hand did the exact opposite, I stayed at NIU for the first two years and then I was a visiting student for my final semester at U of IL so that I could live with DH.

That would be something to consider if A) you don't get into your dream school in your city (so you could start somewhere else and transfer in) or B) if you do go to a law school in a different city as DH you can plan to do your last year locally.

[DCJenn]

My advice, based solely on my ten years on the site is to prepare as best you can and then accept that you have NO control. None, nada, zip, zero. What seems appealling now will (I promise) be completely different once residency starts. Keep the lines of communication open because ultimately no matter what hand you're delt, that's what's going to make it work. We've done the living apart thing, I've had jobs that required weekly travel, I've had jobs that required that I was oncall as much or more than he was. He was deployed, he's leaving for a year long fellowship. None of these things were things we expected (well, we knew the deployment would happen, we just didn't know when) so we HAD to make sure we were totally open and honest about everything.

Also, the part that someone wrote about having to coordinate life from far away because the resident is useless is 100% accurate. Online bill paying and having a team of fix-it people whose numbers are in my cell phone have saved my arse many, many times.

Jenn

[spotty_dog]

I thought you said you're not applying until the fall because it's for 2011 admission? I just meant that two weeks preparing flow charts for every eventuality sounds like an ulcer in the making, and for what? To be a few minutes ahead of the game when that envelope gets opened? By the comparison with testing a patient, I meant that it can be nice to have the information in hand. You suspect H1N1 flu, you want the positive test results in hand to confirm. But whether the test is positive, false positive, negative, false negative...in every case, the answer is the same: rest and fluids. So, you don't run the test, because it's excess and unneeded effort. In your case, you want to have the path laid out for 19 different options. But after the Match, there will be only one (Highlander, anyone?) From what I understand, all that other effort is unneeded.

Hang in there. The Match is crazy-making like nothing else in life. It will all be over soon. Thinking only the best thoughts for everything to work out for you and yours!!

[NYCHoosier]

I thought you said you're not applying until the fall because it's for 2011 admission? I just meant that two weeks preparing flow charts for every eventuality sounds like an ulcer in the making, and for what? To be a few minutes ahead of the game when that envelope gets opened? By the comparison with testing a patient, I meant that it can be nice to have the information in hand. You suspect H1N1 flu, you want the positive test results in hand to confirm. But whether the test is positive, false positive, negative, false negative...in every case, the answer is the same: rest and fluids. So, you don't run the test, because it's excess and unneeded effort. In your case, you want to have the path laid out for 19 different options. But after the Match, there will be only one (Highlander, anyone?) From what I understand, all that other effort is unneeded.

Hang in there. The Match is crazy-making like nothing else in life. It will all be over soon. Thinking only the best thoughts for everything to work out for you and yours!!

Gotcha; I totally misunderstood before.

See, for me, making all of these crazy spreadsheets and charts (okay, I'm really not making flowcharts ...I don't have Visio on my home computer) is actually calming. Sure, I will have a good 8 months after the match to decide where to apply and get all of my applications together; I don't really need to make maps these next two weeks. But, I'm the analytical type. I have a love affair with Excel. I don't know how I ever survived without the vertical lookup function. I like analyzing the "what if" scenarios.

When I first started reading some of the more in depth advice on here, I was a little discouraged. But then I made my lists and looked what could really be. And it helped.
I always find it helpful to figure out what the worst case scenario could be, because often, it is not that bad after all. I also don't want to get my hopes up about certain places only to realize that they might not be such a good fit for us after all. In order to "hope for the best but prepare for the worst", I just find it useful to find out what those could be.

Luckily the weekend is almost here, and I have many plans lined up to keep me away from Excel and Google Maps.

Thanks again, all! Only 2 weeks until Match Day!

[NYCHoosier]

The only thing I would add to the pile of what is really good advice is this: Are you passionate about law, or are you passionate about the lifestyle and perceived prestige of BigLaw? I ask this from my own perspective, which is that I only work for Fortune 100 companies (Fortune 50 is even better). I get that you want to go to the best school possible, but it almost sounds like you want that not because it's going to give you more opportunity, but because it will give you sexy BigLaw opportunity. If you really are in love with *law* then the desire to get going with law school (regardless of tier) and get into your specialty, sexy or not, would be the driver, rather than the best law school and risks/hassles of long distancing. I mean, I personally don't *love* finance, but I do love working in corporate for a powerhouse company, so maybe that's why I am picking up on this.

Per yoozh, your mileage may vary.

I can say with confidence it's not the BigLaw "fancy" lifestyle that I'm drawn to for a couple reasons:
1) I was offered an analyst position at the bank before I left... I had the opportunity to have that same lifestyle in a different industry without having to go to graduate school, but I chose instead to return to law for less money.
2) Having spent time at the firm after hours while the associates are slaving away, I know that the any glamor ends with the summer associateship... and even those aren't glamorous anymore!

I really do love the law. I used to look up answers to my hypothetical legal questions in my dad's copy of the Indiana code. My favorite part of my theatrical producing classes were when we covered contracts. My "ah ha!" moment for going into law was when I was listening into a conference call I had organized and wanted to know more about what they were talking about.

Now, why biglaw instead of little? I like the big deals. I like the huge mergers. And I see that we as a big firm are still always looking to pull work away from little firms. I'm not certain that I will always want to do big law, but I want to leave my options open.
And I see who's coming and going at the firm. Those who are coming either come from top schools, lateral from other big firms, or already have impressive careers. Those who go find all sorts of other opportunities - in other firms, in banking, in public interest, impressive clerkships, etc. So, while there are exceptions to every rule, I feel the BigLaw track will give me the most opportunities... even if I don't end up doing BigLaw.

Just wanted to clear that up... My closest inner circle was surprised about my deciding to pursue law because I've been denying it for so long, but those in the next circle out all responded, "it's about time".

There are definitely a lot of people who go into law for less than stellar reasons, so I get the concern (I don't mean to sound super defensive), but that part is decided.

[spotty_dog]

I'm a spreadsheet queen too, and I completely understand about the calm that comes from breaking things down logically. (My early Match-related considerations were things like whether the area had a good school of education -- so I might pursue a career as a teacher -- or a good graduate program in science -- so I could continue my physics studies; I researched COL and mapped out neighborhoods in which to live; I studied the weather and broke it down into columns for annual precipitation, average highs, and average lows.) Everyone's different and your experience won't be anything like mine because you are not me! I'll just reiterate the advice to keep a zen non-attachment at the back of your mind, and will hold my breath right along with you for the next 11 days.

[reciprocity]

I have risen from the grave to respond to this thread.

I'm a BigLaw lawyer, and my initial response to questions about applying to law school is "don't"

HOWEVER - you've addressed most of the concerns that I have for aspiring law students (which is a different category than "aspiring lawyers")

You know what you're getting into in terms of the actual work you will probably be doing

You're realistic about your goals (mostly - by this I mean you don't plan to be an "International Criminal Rights Attorney" or a "Persian Archaeology and Antiquities Attorney" or an "Entertainment Lawyer" - you know that your career will likely involve a LOT of mind-numbing drudgery, long hours and acrimoniously competitive working conditions)

BUT I do think you're doing a bit of hand-waving about the difficulties of finding jobs from a second-tier school. It's ridiculously hard out there - and yes, networking can bridge some gaps, but summer programs are becoming leaner and leaner and more and more selective. Also I think the "local second-tier" recruitment was hit the hardest. I'm in Chicago and I can count the number of DePaul summers from last year on one finger. I have a hard time recommending in good conscience that anyone attend a non top 15 school in this economic climate unless they're going for free (and even then, there's a significant opportunity cost issue, and in your case, the added "cost" of the potential relationship strain).

Also I should add that my perspective is as a litigator, but my understanding is that corporate - especially outside of NY - is really struggling right now.

So yeah, I know this doesn't directly address your question, and I appreciate that your decision to go to law school is a foregone conclusion. I guess the parts you can take from it that are directly relevant are: go to the best school you can, and if you can't go to a top school, then think really hard about whether the BigLaw doors you anticipate walking through will even be open to you.

It is also true that things are improving, but because of deferrals, the massive pool of unemployed attorneys and the fact that law schools continue to churn out record numbers of graduates, I'm not sure that the picture will be any more rosy in 4-5 years.

Your decision to wait until you find out his match location is what I would do, if I were in your shoes. If you're thinking a big city, there's good odds that there will be a decent cross-section of programs to apply to (eg - in Chicago you could do UChi, NU, Michigan plus a bunch of others). If you're moving to a mid-market town, I'm not sure any of this is even relevant (and I'm not sure you'd want to work in a "big" mid-market firm anyway).

Anyway, sorry if I came off too harsh - I get a lot of flack for poking holes in people's dreams on this issue, but I think when you're talking about spending this kind of money, it pays to have someone approach your dream with a critical eye. You wouldn't buy a house without having it inspected, right!

Best of luck!

[Finding Equanimity]

OK, so you totally didn't ask for this advice but I'm giving to you anyway if you guys want to have kids and you do go to law school as planned, have a kid in law school. Honestly. Because wherever you end up (BigLaw or non-BigLaw) you'll never have as much time to enjoy your baby. And you'll fret about having a kid right after graduating and you'll fret about missing your baby when you're back at work.

I totally regret not having a kid while I was in law school. First year is tough, but after that it's smooth sailing. This is said from a former editor on law review so my second and third years were busy, but I now know I still could have managed a kid.

That's my humble and non-solicited advice

[NYCHoosier]

Eric - is it strange I'm flattered that you "[rose] from the grave" to throw in your 2 cents? I actually don't think you crushed my dreams. Perhaps you would if I was currently in the middle of my class at a 2nd tier school, but at this point, it's another necessary perspective. Since T14 schools are definitely reach but not necessarily impossible for me based on my stats, I might apply a little more broadly. If I find myself in the fortunate position of debating between a T14 or scholarship $$ to go to a T1 or T2, that may result in me begging for more advice.

If the best school I get into at all is T2 or lower, then I will adjust my expectations accordingly and/or wait a year and apply again. I do like various areas of law (including entertainment law, haha), but, like I said, if I aim for BigLaw, I'm not really limiting myself (unless I accrue so much debt I have to find a 6-figure position... hmm...).

Sorry for rambling, but thanks again for taking the time to respond! Oh, and thank you for the perspective on the Chicago law market as that's actually where I'd like to end up. My firm is based out of Chicago, so I'm not completely out of touch with that market, but I think we're probably doing a lot better than most Chicago firms simply because we are such a presence there. It's good to know what the entire city is like since my current firm may be out of my league.

OK, so you totally didn't ask for this advice but I'm giving to you anyway if you guys want to have kids and you do go to law school as planned, have a kid in law school. Honestly. Because wherever you end up (BigLaw or non-BigLaw) you'll never have as much time to enjoy your baby. And you'll fret about having a kid right after graduating and you'll fret about missing your baby when you're back at work.

I totally regret not having a kid while I was in law school. First year is tough, but after that it's smooth sailing. This is said from a former editor on law review so my second and third years were busy, but I now know I still could have managed a kid.

That's my humble and non-solicited advice

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were my former boss! She actually advised the same thing. She's an exec at [global bank] now, but her husband is an L2 at a T14 law school. She, too, went to a T14 and advised that DH and I have babies when I'm in law school because it's "so easy". I'm skeptical, but it still sounds better than my current boss's labor story. It was just before the time of cell phones, and she was a young associate at a BigLaw firm. She went into labor early, and one of the old school male partners called her at the hospital while she was in labor asking for updates on their deal. Uh, birthing twins here, can you ask the other guy?
Hmm... wouldn't be the craziest thing I've ever done! I'll keep an open mind about it.

Anyway, thanks as well to spotty_dog, MarissaNicole, et al for the positive vibes! I appreciate it and am feeling like a bit of an AW because this thread is still alive. 8 days until The Match...

I have risen from the grave to respond to this thread.!

DUDE! Where HAVE you been? Please start another thread and fill us in!

[reciprocity]

Eric - is it strange I'm flattered that you "[rose] from the grave" to throw in your 2 cents? I actually don't think you crushed my dreams. Perhaps you would if I was currently in the middle of my class at a 2nd tier school, but at this point, it's another necessary perspective. Since T14 schools are definitely reach but not necessarily impossible for me based on my stats, I might apply a little more broadly. If I find myself in the fortunate position of debating between a T14 or scholarship $$ to go to a T1 or T2, that may result in me begging for more advice.

If the best school I get into at all is T2 or lower, then I will adjust my expectations accordingly and/or wait a year and apply again. I do like various areas of law (including entertainment law, haha), but, like I said, if I aim for BigLaw, I'm not really limiting myself (unless I accrue so much debt I have to find a 6-figure position... hmm...).

Sorry for rambling, but thanks again for taking the time to respond! Oh, and thank you for the perspective on the Chicago law market as that's actually where I'd like to end up. My firm is based out of Chicago, so I'm not completely out of touch with that market, but I think we're probably doing a lot better than most Chicago firms simply because we are such a presence there. It's good to know what the entire city is like since my current firm may be out of my league.

Hmm, I'm also at a V50 Chicago-based firm. Wouldn't it be a hoot if we shared an employer? (probably not though, if your assessment of your firm's performance this past year is accurate - we emerged a little bit worse-for-wear, tbqh)

I think you've got all the right issues in mind! I really hope it works out for you!

DUDE! Where HAVE you been? Please start another thread and fill us in!

Hee hee. Ok, ok - a vanity "whatever happened to... me!" thread coming soon to a GR near you