High COL Cities

[madeintaiwan]

I'm under the impression that any place in California requires a car, though.

Probably for the most part, but there are places in CA where you don't need a car. You definitely don't NEED a car in SF. DH's cousin has lived there, in various areas, for over 10 years without a car. Surprisingly, one of my friends lived in Sacramento and never had a car. She's in her 30's and never got her driver's license. In most college towns you don't need a car. DH was dropped off for college with only his bike. Same with my cousin when she went to Santa Barbara.

[alison]

Probably for the most part, but there are places in CA where you don't need a car. You definitely don't NEED a car in SF. DH's cousin has lived there, in various areas, for over 10 years without a car. Surprisingly, one of my friends lived in Sacramento and never had a car. She's in her 30's and never got her driver's license. In most college towns you don't need a car. DH was dropped off for college with only his bike. Same with my cousin when she went to Santa Barbara.

A car is a handicap in San Francisco. Ayaiyai.

Where we live in the Peninsula, we've actually needed a car far less than in Chicago! Dh bikes to work, and I walk everywhere (I walk about 3 miles/day). I don't like to drive, and I do all our grocery shopping and errands on foot if I can.

Back to the actual topic: we live in a smaller town that has a higher COL than where we lived during residency (Chicago). There are far many more things to do in the city for free like festivals, parks, free zoo, and art fairs. It's a completely different lifestyle, and one that fits me better. I do like living on the West Coast versus in the Midwest, despite the fact that we are in a small university town. I'm terrible with the whole "grass is greener," but I can't see myself living in a town smaller than 500,000 people. I just need the anonymity, diversity, and density of a city, and want dd to have that experience, too.

A side note, we went to the town children's zoo here, and they had maybe 10 animals there. Does a raccoon count as a zoo animal?

[Sheherezade]

I think all the free things to do in a city are a real bonus. We did live in Boston with kids and it was OK. As they got older, I can see that it would limit the activities they could pursue if you couldn't make the trip quickly enough via public transport. Honestly, one of the interesting things I've noticed in becoming a "car person" in the 'burbs is that it is all about time. The schedules are all designed for people with cars here. They figure you will need 10 minutes to leave school and get to point A, 15 minutes to make it from meeting to meeting, etc. If you are walking, biking or on public transport, you can't be that quick. It makes you need a car - because it is assumed that everyone will travel that way. In the city, it was perfectly within the norm to walk or take the T and schedules were designed with more wiggle room.

So - COL depends a lot on how you design the L in that abbreviation.

[scrub-jay]

A car is a handicap in San Francisco. Ayaiyai.

I agree with this completely. I have little to no experience with SoCal, but I know quite a bit about the SF Bay Area on up the coast! In the City (SF) you definitely do not need a car - we had 2 cars and when we'd go to SF, we'd take BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit), cable cars, etc. However, as you go more rural or inland a car can be very useful. Sacramento is fine within the city area but there are quite a lot of 'burbs where a car is necessary. I've heard that public transit sucks in LA (or SoCal) but I haven't lived there so I wouldn't know.

ETA: There really is no way to generalize CA. Where I grew up was fairly rural (2 colleges & 6 hours drive from SF) and you most definitely needed a car. *shrug* it all depends on where you are!!

[oceanchild]

I think you could do LA without a car, but you'd have to be really, really strategic about where you live and work. Public transit there is not as bad as everybody says it is, but it's definitely a car culture.

We just moved to a much lower COL city (DC to Denver), and it's a noticeable difference. But we did well in DC, and there are things about it that I miss, for sure. I think the big thing is going to be space. Your ability to live in less space will make all the difference.

[Thirteen]

I think you could do LA without a car, but you'd have to be really, really strategic about where you live and work. Public transit there is not as bad as everybody says it is, but it's definitely a car culture.

Julia's right: the thing to keep in mind here is that the probability of you living close (affordably and safely) to where you work is not so great.
e.g.) DH commutes 40 min, one way, without traffic, and I did more.
LADOT is okay, but pales in comparison to other large cities (NYC, Boston, etc). and there's definitely a "class-consciousness" to transit travel. I wish it weren't true, but it appears to be so. *sigh*
If you live in L.A., you will cave for a car.

[madeintaiwan]

Sacramento is fine within the city area but there are quite a lot of 'burbs where a car is necessary.

We lived out in the burbs and I took the lightrail to my HS in the city. The lightrail goes all the way out past Rancho Cordova now. My aunt lives out that way and works in DT Sacramento. It can be done.

[MDPhDWife]

Although we live in a city that has a metro area of 800K+ it's really sprawled out and everyone has a car. We do have a train system and a somewhat decent bus system that DH uses most of the time to go to school about 25 minutes away, but I seriously could not imagine life without a car no matter where we live. The first obstacle that comes to mind is grocery shopping. When I go to Wal-Mart I almost never fail to fill my trunk completely. How does one manage any sort shopping trips especially grocery shopping using public transportation? I realize there's grocery delivery services but short of that how do you shlep all your purchases? Even in our famously mild year around climate here, I would hate walking when it's too cold/hot/windy/rainy outside. Even though the bus stop DH uses to ride the bus to the hospital is only a 5-10 minute walk away from our home, I'll often drive him there or he'll park his car there, lol I guess we're just lazy!

As far as space is concerned, I bought the house we live in new when I was 18 and single. It's 3br 2.5bath approx 1300 sq ft and I often complain about our lack of space, again I can't imagine moving someplace smaller than where we currently are, especially to pay more for it to boot!

Ugh, seems like I'm definitely more of a suburb kind of gal....

Now CA is definitely a place I could see ourselves settling once DH is finished with training. In fact I wanted to ask you guys about Sacramento and Loma Linda because those are two places that have programs and the COL didn't seem too outrageous. Also, there's a couple of programs in SF, but since COL is so high there, does anyone have thoughts on living in a nearby town such as Oakland and commuting to SF for residency? I would love to stay in the SW so we're close to home and because of the dryer, warmer temps, but again since DH is applying to a competitive specialty with less than 100 programs to choose from, we're going to have no choice but to cast a wider net than I would prefer.

[MDPhDWife]

Pittsburgh is another culturally diverse low COL area with a ton to do. In fact, if we ever go in to civilian medicine, Pittsburgh is #3 for both of us. (San Antonio is #1 and DC is #2).

Now, San Antonio is a great city. We live downtown and love it- and there are plenty of options in communities- new, old, boonies, mansions and cottages. COL is cheap but property taxes are STUPIDLY high. Since we don't have income tax, they pay for the school systems through the property tax system. It is not however, culturally diverse- there are white people and hispanic people and 99% of the hispanic population is Mexican- either culturally Mexican or from Mexico. For example, if you want Ethiopian food (which I do, I've been craving it for weeks now) you have to go to Austin. (another fun town, more expensive then SA but a little more diverse, too)

Jenn

Funny you mention that Jenn because SA is actually our #1 choice at the moment. I've been there several times and although I don't necessarily like the humidity, I love the city, it's feel, and of course the COL is great. We're really keeping our fingers crossed for there and I'm hoping our chances are improved by the fact that one of DH's mentors completed his residency there. Pittsburgh is also on the list but not as high despite me being a Steeler fan simply because of climate, although I've never been there. I'm thinking the chances of us ending up in Pittsburgh are decent though because they send some of their residents here for rotations so there's an established relationship there.

[madeintaiwan]

Now CA is definitely a place I could see ourselves settling once DH is finished with training. In fact I wanted to ask you guys about Sacramento and Loma Linda because those are two places that have programs and the COL didn't seem too outrageous.

Charlene, feel free to PM me. I grew up in Sacramento, went to UC Davis, and my family still lives out there, all over Sacramento.

[poky]

Although we live in a city that has a metro area of 800K+ it's really sprawled out and everyone has a car. We do have a train system and a somewhat decent bus system that DH uses most of the time to go to school about 25 minutes away, but I seriously could not imagine life without a car no matter where we live. The first obstacle that comes to mind is grocery shopping. When I go to Wal-Mart I almost never fail to fill my trunk completely. How does one manage any sort shopping trips especially grocery shopping using public transportation? I realize there's grocery delivery services but short of that how do you shlep all your purchases? Even in our famously mild year around climate here, I would hate walking when it's too cold/hot/windy/rainy outside. Even though the bus stop DH uses to ride the bus to the hospital is only a 5-10 minute walk away from our home, I'll often drive him there or he'll park his car there, lol I guess we're just lazy!

I haven't lived in the heart of a big city, but I've spent time with people who live in various different types of places in Europe, and it's similar to what I'm hearing described for big cities....it's definintely a population density thing, and it's a completely different lifestyle than what you're obviously used to. Friends live in a small town in Switzerland (basically a suburb of Lucerne), and their apartment is a block from a grocery store (I'd call it a small grocery store, but it's just a normal grocery store for there), and about 2 blocks from a train station that could get them anywhere in Europe with a transfer or two. The key for walking/bussing and buying groceries is sturdy reusable bags, and going *way* more frequently than suburban people are used to going. They go every couple-three days, and pick up a few things each time. Easy when it's only a block away. And I can hear you saying "ugh, all that TIME for all those trips"...the other key is that *everyone* shops that way. It's just expected, it's the way it is, and everything just kindof...adjusts to the different pace of life, as someone else already mentioned.

[alison]

Yup, I go grocery shopping every 2-3 days and just pick up what I need for a few meals. Dd and I are in and out in 10 minutes. She loves to go to the store, and knows all the cashier people. I load up her stroller with the groceries and also use hooks to hang grocery bags.

[SuzySunshine]

It's funny because alison considers her location to be walkable, I definitely did not consider it walkable when I lived there and the bus system is truly lacking. If you could get to the CalTrain you could easily get up to San Francisco, that was nice but I definitely needed my car while I was there because of my job. The first 3 years we were there DH probably could have lived without one because of his bike but once we moved to the cottage we lived in the last two years we both needed cars. I could totally see how alison makes it walkable from where she lives though and there are both apartments and houses in her immediate area that would make it possible.

[Sheherezade]

Strollers. I used to haul about 5 bags in the bottom of my stroller or in the back seat (with a double stroller/toddler walking). I agree with everything poky said.

Here's the bit that has always confused the hell out of me. Because of the walking, shopping everyday, need more time between events for travel, and less space at home to clean/maintain, city life has always been more slow and calm for me. Some suburbs are hectic. Here, it is all about efficient scurrying from one thing to the other and everyone is busy, busy, busy. It always astounds me when people say they moved to the 'burbs because they don't like the frantic city life. For me, it has been just the opposite.

[poky]

Here's the bit that has always confused the hell out of me. Because of the walking, shopping everyday, need more time between events for travel, and less space at home to clean/maintain, city life has always been more slow and calm for me. Some suburbs are hectic. Here, it is all about efficient scurrying from one thing to the other and everyone is busy, busy, busy. It always astounds me when people say they moved to the 'burbs because they don't like the frantic city life. For me, it has been just the opposite.

I think by "frantic" they mean "densely populated, and therefore noisier", not "doing lots more things". Suburban life *can* be calmer, but you have to build in that downtime that you're *forced* to take when you don't use a car. You have to say no to squeezing in just one more thing - just because you CAN do it, doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULD - and you have to accept that some of the people around you are going to be doing more with their days. It seems obvious, of course, but it's not easy when it's just expected that of course you can have your kids in 4 different extracurricular activities at once.