the Middle East.... ( 1

Wow I wasn't expecting such a big response. You are right, I am not telling anyone what they should or should not be reading on the news. I was saying for my own information, I try to read as many news sources as possible because I think that this is an inflammatory topic. Again, I've seen reasonable, well educated people on both sides of the fence here. That tells me that there are sides to the story that aren't getting told on both sides. I try very hard to educate myself for a complete picture.



I couldn't agree with you more that this topic is getting a lot of newstime for political and economic reasons. And I also think that the Palestinians are being used by Arab countries as pawns as well. Unfortunately, many of the hard line terrorist groups like Hamas did not originate in Palestine. There are other interests at work here.



However, I do not think that Isreal is blameless either. The land is still in UN dispute, unlike the situation of the Native Americans and aboriginies. Isreal is building settlements on disputed land. There are Palestinians who want the destruction of Israel- there are also Isrealis who want to completely remove all of the Palestinians.



And no, being Jewish does not automatically make you Zionist. Zionism is a recent term, coined in the late 1800's. Yes, there are some religious roots in Zionism, but in fact there are Orthodox factions that oppose Zionism from a religious standpoint.



I can't agree with your statement about being taught in public schools that it is all right to make excuses for violence. I think that it is important to understand why violence is happening in order to stop it. That doesn't excuse the behavior, but instead finds better ways to stop it. The acts of these suicide bombers are desperate people with nothing to lose. Attacking the Palestinian infrastructure is not going to stop these acts- it is going to make it worse. Any chance of the PA reining in the attacks are now moot. You don't need fancy infrastructure to make a suicide bomber. You need desperate people, which are now being created in abundance. How is this protecting Israel's security interests? Over 100 Israeli reservists have refused to serve in the occupied territories. This tells me that this is not just a black and white issue of Israel protecting their interests.



This is a sensitive topic for me because I grew up in a family that strongly advocated Zionism. I believed that the Palestinians had brought it on themselves, that the Israelis were doing what was right. However, I went to a book reading by an Israeli author sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, and realized, painfully, that the world is not as black and white as I thought. Since then, I've really been trying very hard to learn about both sides, and to see some of the larger economic, geographic, and political interests that are pushing this conflict as well.



Regardless, thanks for keeping this discussion civil. It's nice to be able to discuss these issues and learn from other posters .

Do you wanna hear another piece of US history that I'll bet NONE of you have every heard? It is regarding MY culture - that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (I'll use the term "Mormon" for you since it is a more familiar nickname given to us by "Gentiles" ). In the 1800s the leader of the Mormons, Joseph Smith took his people to Missouri. On the banks of the Mississippi river they built a beautiful, "modern" city called Nauvoo. It had many of the characteristics of cities of today (regarding layout, sewage cleanup, etc) that didn't exist in towns of the time. The local residents around the city of Nauvoo began terrorizing the inhabitants. They raped, pillaged, and murdered the Mormons (assassinating Joseph Smith, massacering women and children at Hahn's Mill, etc.) until the Mormons were forced to leave or die. Before his death, Joseph Smith appealed to the President of the United States to intervene. He was ignored. The governor of Missouri actually issued a proclamation that anyone was legally allowed to shoot a Mormon on-site. That proclamation was not rescinded until the latter half of the 20th century!!! With mobs actually at their heels the Mormons took off for the west and eventually settled in Utah. My point is that my people were killed, raped, and their land stolen from them. But, did we become terrorists? NO! We made lemonaid out of lemons and got the heck out of Dodge - because we cared about what happened to every individual. We were not welcome in any country as well - so we found a place that no one wanted - a desert with a salt sea in the mountains - and turned into a beautiful and desirable place to live. This didn't happen thousands or even hundreds of years ago - it happened in the late 1800s! Even after the Mormons settled around the Great Salt Lake the United States sent an army to occupy their land and capture their leaders. This threat was stopped through peaceful means- basically through intelligence and cunning on the part of Brigham Young (the leader at that point of the Mormon settlers). So, knowing my history, knowing what is possible, I find the Palestinian's "solution" to their own, similar problems deplorable. It doesn't matter if Israel is right or wrong - what the Palestinians are doing has no justification.



curious, we do agree on some points, but I do not believe ANYTHING justifies the terrorism we have witnessed - especially of late. And, having studied the same scriptures that are held sacred by the Jews - those books written by Moses - I can tell you that it is deeply routed in the Jewish cultural/religious psyche that Jerusalem and the area around it were given to them by God - beginning with Joshua's conquests.



Jennifer



Jennifer

Well, let me just say that I do not believe that it is justified. However, it is happening. I am interested in focusing on stopping it. And I don't believe that two wrongs make a right.



On your example of Mormons choosing to go somewhere else to settle- I like the story, very courageous, but I don't quite understand the parallel. There is no such place for Palestinians right now in the Middle East even if they wanted to leave. They can't leave-they are completely surrounded (the Arab nations are also to blame for this). They are stuck like cattle in a holding pen. I think this sort of mentality drives people to desperate measures.



You may have studied the scriptures. I have family members who are Jewish and do not only study it, they live it. Not all of them are Zionist, and they do not believe that Zionism is synonymous with Judaism.

Well, nothing justifies terrorism and I believe that the Israeli's have also been guilty. I agree with parts of what everyone has said and disagree with other parts... Here's my .02 in a nutshell. I've used this analogy before, but I'll repeat it...



Israel was created after world war II...and in my view, it would be as if we decided to create a safe haven for...immigrants from the middle east...in the US. Let's say that we choose the area from Dallas/Ft. Worth all the way to Oklahoma. In my analogy, the US govt would come to TX and demand that people leave their homes, their land, etc...and move to another area of TX....then, they would support this new immigrant haven almost to the exclusion of helping the US citizens in TX to keep them safe and provide them with their basic rights.



Their would be an outcry and rebellion. What gun-wielding Texan would just stand by and watch their home or their land be taken?.. Israel has also continued to try and increase the size of it's borders by using weapons and car bombs to destroy Palestinian areas...they want more land, and they've killed many people in their attempts...The palestinians have rebelled against this and though the allies all helped to "create" Israel, it is really only the US who continues to hand her fistfuls of money and weapons. The same weapons that she hurls across her border at Palestine.



In a way, WE TOO are supporting terrorism by continuing to give Israel money and arms.



An impartial committe should be formed to help Israel and Palestine. The US should be included, but the world needs to help out. Israel simply is not the innocent victim of terrorism....





Hiding now,



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

P.S.



I know we all have strong feelings and everyone has been really great....just thought I'd throw out the "play nice" reminder, heheheh...though everyone really is!



Kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

I am admittedly not on top of this topic yet I believe there are many "unknowns" in this "war" that make this much, much more complicated than labeling it as a situation of simply "X" people got moved from their land so they must deal with it peacefully. There are many what ifs that we could create but none will perfectly parallel the situation in the Middle East. Everyone on planet earth could make a case for some unjustice that has been brought on them - but I just don't think this is a case of the Indians, etc.

The Palestinian people can not be grouped under the leadership of Arafat and/or the terrorists. I still think that these evil people who try to "negotiate" in this violent manner are the minority. Unfortunately, there acts are so despicable that they are given more attention than the individuals who are attempting a peaceful negotiation.

I agree with Kris in keeping it civil. I just wanted to say that I hope I have not offended anyone with my posts that was not my intention. Jennifer-sometimes it's hard to gauge these things in cyberspace-- I apologize if the last posting sounded short on my end. I know this topic can get charged.

Oh, don't hide, Kristen! I promise I won't shoot AT you, just in your general area! But, seriously, it is a mess - we can all agree on that one. My analogy with the history of my culture is that there is a high road to take no matter what happens to you. That is exactly what the early Mormons did - they took the high road even though they could've used the exact same reasoning that defenders of the Palestinian's actions use. No, no analogy is going to be exactly and precisely the same - but roughly all of the analogies I have used work for this situation. If we were going to make this an exact analogy (between the Mormons and the Palestinians) then the Palestinians need to get the heck out of Dodge in defense of their lives so to speak and to be in morally justifiable territory. Well, you say, they have no way of getting anywhere. Well, neither did the Mormons - they literally walked on the longest documented human migration in recorded history and through blizzards, over mountains, etc - without shoes, without much if any food, without wagons most of them. Many, many of them were children, pregnant women, the elderly, the crippled. It CAN be done - if there is a will, a person can do it. Well, you say, they have nowhere to go. Neither did they. They just went West and hadn't a clue as to where they would stop until they came to the Salt Lake Valley and Brigham Young said, "This is the place" - that was MONTHS after the first of them fled the United States. There is NO excuse for the Palestinian's actions.



As long as the Palestinian leadership commits terrorism, as long as the Palestinian culture supports teaching young boys to kill innocent bystanders along with themselves as "martyrs", as long as the Palestinians as a group support mass murderers in their villages and homes, I will count the Israeli government as completely justified in taking military action to defend its citizenry. Now, IF the Palestinians as a whole were to throw down their weapons, so to speak, tomorrow, IF they were to take the high road and refuse to become monsters in the face of oppression, then I would predict the Palestinians would get every darn thing they desired - regardless of if Israel wanted to give it to them. Why? Because if the Palestinians took the high road the West would support them out of a historic sense of wanting to rush in and defend the little guy, the Arab nations would be forced to recognize that religiously at least they have an obligation to their "brothers", and Israel would suddenly look like the bad guy (ie if the Palestinians were not being aggressive the Israeli govt would have no justification for taking military action). As it is, Israel has a morally justifiable position at the moment - defending its citizenry and occupying territories as a "buffer zone" from those who previously tried to destroy them. The Palestinian's as a group lost any moral justification the second they began targeting innocent civilians, completely disregarding the safety of the innocents among themselves, teaching their children to blow themselves up among women and children, completely disregarding their own religious principles of allowing God to decide their fate (Allah willing) and only target "military" targets with violence. If all of the above were to cease tomorrow, Palestine would be completely in a morally justifiable position, and Israel would not.



Jennifer

BTW - ask anyone who has endured something similar to what the Palestinians are claiming to endure and you will see that their position is NOT unique. That is something I get waaaay tired of hearing - that the Palestinians as a people and their leadership are somehow in a unique position and there is nothing analogous to it in history. I've already named a number of peoples who have endured or do currently endure similar situations. Unfortunately the Palestinian solution of becoming monstrous (ie the human bombs) is not unique, either. This is not new - just ask the Jews during the Nazi's holcaust, the Native Americans during Andrew Jackson's presidential term, the Mormons during the same president's term - these analogies have applications to the current situation.



Jennifer

BTW - I also am happy that there is no name calling and general immaturity in this discussion. I decided to not be involved in the SDN site because of the unbelievable attitudes and words being hefted there (particularly on this issue, but on others as well). I guess I just figured out that I was pretty much arguing with high school students by the reactions I was seeing and the words that were being used. In contrast, this is much more civilized, and dare I say, less violent?



Jennifer

Fair enough. I think I'm going to bow out of this discussion. We shall agree to disagree.

Sometimes it is OK to compare an apple and an orange...both are fruits, sure. Yet they are quite different in color, texture, and taste to mention a few. Superficially, a glaring difference between the case of the Mormons and the Palestinians is the sheer number of people involved. The Mormon migration was a couple of hundred in number. The Palestinians number several million in population.



That being said, I also bow out. I think the key to maintaining a civil discussion is knowing when to stop! It has been very nice having a discussion that does not spiral downward into nasties! Thanks!

Everyone is bowing out...darn..I missed one of the few great MSN debates! Actually, I really enjoyed reading the different perspectives though I think everyone pretty much knows that I agree with some and disagree with some (hehehe..walking the fine line)



But I think that this debate actually brings a more global issue into play...how we, as a world, solve conflict. All of us were going back into what we "feel" and "believe" and in the end we ended agreeing to disagree or bowing out...and in a way, that's what's happening in the peace agreements in the Middle East, has been the problem in Northern Ireland, and is the problem for many of us in this country surrounding affirmative action...even in our marriages we find ourselves drudging up the feelings, the hurts, etc.....(well, at least I do...but don't tell my husband that I know that I shouldn't be!).



At the end of the day, I think that we have to look towards solutions. It's hard to say now who is more at fault, who is the most evil this week. At the end of the day, perhaps it is best to follow the example of a mother whose children are fighting...put them both in TIME OUT! But seriously, I believe that we have to find a way to move past whatever has happened over the last 50 years and find a new foundation for each country to start rebuilding. If they continue to fight about all of the hurts and wrongdoings, they will never find peace.....It's time to find neutral ground and let both parties come up with a treaty that they can both live with...which is why I think that Palestine should be declared it's own state and that aid be given to each country then equally to rebuild.....



Too bad everyone's bowed out



kris
Time is a Dressmaker, Specializing in Alterations!

Sorry to bow out- in all honesty I was feeling a little uncomfortable with the intensity of the discussion. I didn't expect such a strong response to my posts. Guess it's part of the game on a discussion board! Still learning how to work these things..

Claudia, actually from 1846 to 1869, 60,000 to 70,000 Mormon pioneers crossed the plains to Utah. The migration began due to the violence and continued thereafter (in part due to continued threats of violence both by the governors extermination order in Missouri and by the US gov't's issues with the Mormons - not to mention lasting bigotries among the general public. Here's a link that discusses these numbers and the number of estimated deaths in the mass migration (put in the 6,000s - roughly 10% of those who attempted the migration died in the process). library.lds.org/Library/l...-h.htm&2.0



There were a LOT of Mormons - not just a few hundred! There are a LOT of misconceptions on this subject as well. It's kind of like the dirty little secret of US history that never gets taught in public schools....



Jennifer