Killeen-Ft. Hood

[ides]

wow. so sad! I don't have tv so I'm kind of out of the loop. very sad to hear of this!

[Rapunzel]

I think the problem is that extreme ideologies can appeal to the mentally unstable (one could say that those ideologies are themselves the products of other mentally unstable individuals). Reading what this Colonel Terry Lee (who apparently worked with the shooter in the past) said it seems like this guy had definitely become attracted to an extreme (and violent) ideology.

According to retired Col. Terry Lee, who was interviewed by Fox News and who knew Major Malik Nadal Hasan, the suspect made several statements indicating his ideological beliefs such as: “The killing of the soldier in Arkansas and any attack against the U.S. military inside the homeland is legitimate because of American military involvement in the Middle East.” Terry detailed remarks made by the accused killer “against U.S. policy and in support of potential suicide attacks inside the country.” Of course, these statements and those reported by others need to be analyzed and verified.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/...terror-attack/

So, what I'm wondering is if the people (such as this Col. Lee) who heard this man make these comments just blew it off, were scared to inform authorities, or if there was some other reason the people around this unstable individual chose not to start an intervention earlier (before this violence occurred). Obviously the man's poor family didn't seem to know the extent of his instability and new attraction to a violent ideology.

[GrayMatterWife]

So, what I'm wondering is if the people (such as this Col. Lee) who heard this man make these comments just blew it off, were scared to inform authorities, or if there was some other reason the people around this unstable individual chose not to start an intervention earlier (before this violence occurred).

I was wondering the same thing. One day in court, we had this lady make some comments to the Court that were not direct threats, but they were sort of backhanded threats against the judge. THEN, after court, she called me, and made some more, similar remarks. I went to the US Marshals, reported her, and those guys launched an investigation.

US Marshals are not like the wirey FBI guys: they are 6'4", 240-lb muscle-bound guys. Even the girls are really ripped and know how to conduct themselves in a very persuasive way. They don't mess around. They took the problem seriously and went to her home to interview her.

And that was just for an indirect threat. You'd think the Army would take a more direct threat a thousand times more seriously. I wonder what happened.

[MrsK]

Maybe in part due to his job...? He worked with the guys who were receiving treatment for PTSD. NOT that this excuses him in ANY way.

Part of training to be a psychiatrist is learning how to cope when you are surrounded by troubled people. Many psychiatrists work with people who have devistating mental illness, irrational thoughts, and who engage in very disturbing behaviours. It's hard on them. I know that there are some times that DrK feels the strain. But learning how to cope and when the psychiatrist needs to get help -- for which many psychiatrists see therapists -- is part of the job.

From what I've read, it appears to be coincedental that this guy was a psychiatrist and it doesn't appear that he was mentally ill. It appears that he knew what he was doing and was in control of his thoughts and actions.

[Pollyanna]

From what I've read, it appears to be coincedental that this guy was a psychiatrist and it doesn't appear that he was mentally ill. It appears that he knew what he was doing and was in control of his thoughts and actions.

This is what I understand too. I also read that he needed counseling during med school because of some of his interactions with patients.

[DCJenn]

From everything I've read (he was airlifted to BAMC yesterday, FYI- should make getting on post even more of a PITA) he sort of took a turn after his parents died. Looking for some sort of support system after his was no longer there.

Everyone that knew him personally (and there weren't many who were friends, apparently) said that he seemed like a quiet guy but not odd or out of place.

Physician, heal thyself.

and honestly, unless you've seen it, the military is truly a different world. The guys he would have been working with have seen the worst of humanity and often times have DONE the worst things, too.

Jenn

PS- The Washington Post had some idiot on their website yesterday answering questions who was completely clueless about military medicine, the USUHS payback, residency, etc. It was so annoying to read. It started off with "I don't know of any military commitment that's longer than 6 years." ARGH. The level of disinformation out there in relation to how the medicine part all plays in to this is alarming.

[Rapunzel]

Everyone that knew him personally (and there weren't many who were friends, apparently) said that he seemed like a quiet guy but not odd or out of place.

What I've been reading is that the people who interacted with him while he was in the military (ie after not being around his family for quite awhile) found him to be odd and out of place. He apparently listed his nationality as "Palestinian" at his local mosque (even though he was born and raised an American) and tended to get into fights with others in the military over the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and went so far as to claim these were wars "against Islam" as opposed to wars against terrorism. From descriptions by those around him he sounds very aggressive and very angry.

This may have been premeditated. In an interview with Matt Lauer the base commander at Ft. Hood related:

During an interview on NBC’s Today Show, Lt. Gen. Robert Cone, the base commander, said soldiers reported that the gunman shouted “Allahu akbar!” — an Arabic phrase for “God is great!” — before opening fire. He said officials had not yet confirmed that Hasan made the comment.

I had a thought last night: The fact that the guy was put on a type of probation while in medical training (ie he was "counseled") makes me wonder. I personally know of one other man who was described in a similar fashion (and, due to my interactions with him I'd describe him similarly as well) who was also put on probation and closely watched for what appear to be similar reasons - and he was ultimately kicked out of the program. That was a civilian program, though. The military is different. I don't know if you CAN be kicked out of the military medical school or medical residency programs - it's a lot harder to be "fired" from a government job, that's for sure.

Soooo... I guess I'm wondering if everyone who worked with him realized he was a serious problem but their hands were all tied?


Something odd I came upon with this story was that apparently this guy claimed to be in the ROTC in college (and, the military says he was) BUT his college says he was NOT in ROTC. Just a weird thing I saw.

[DCJenn]

The guy who told Rick to F off in front of the patient and his family (during fellowship) was ultimately removed from the fellowship (aka fired) but because he was USUHS and owed the military seven years, he ended up at the clinic at USUHS for the entire payback, under the watchful eye of the commanders.

So, it's possible to be removed but they'll never let someone not finish the payback. That would set a precedent that they don't want to see. EVER.

Jenn

[Momo]

Re: the Palestinian reference:

The media, as well as most, aren't schooled in the marital customs the Levant countries. You see his family is of PALESTINIAN origin, they came from the refugee population w/in Jordon. As you know massive amounts of Arabs were forcefully expelled from their homes and land and forced to settle in refugee ghettos/ camps w/in many of the surrounding countries. His family obviously immigrated here after residing in Jordon.

When he was filling out the marital questionnaire @ his Mosque (as reported ), he put Palestine/Palestinian, because (unfortunately) a lot of Arabs from this region have a very un-Islamic custom of not marrying outside of "their own kind." Therefore he was stating this, because it would let potential families know, upfront, in case this were to matter to them. It's very common for even American born Muslims of Arab ethnicity to state Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian or Syrian etc to allow potential families to know. So when I heard this, especially w/in context it made perfect sense why he answered the questionnaire that way. It's too bad the Media and pundits are playing it up as more than it is.

My BF is working in psych at Walter Reed right now, and so really hearing a lot about this. Everyone there knew the shooter, but doesn't have much to say about him except that he was kind of quiet and odd. Obama came and spoke to the department on Friday. It brings up so many questions about the pressure on psychiatrists, especially in the army, and how to help military doctors deal with the trauma they're exposed to indirectly, even when not deployed. It's my BF an interesting perspective on psychiatry and the associated stress.

[Rapunzel]

army md girlfriend:

I am curious about something. Is it a common thing for army psychiatrists to violently "break"- resulting in slaughter (mass or even "just" one or two killed)? I guess I'm just not seeing a connection between his work/responsibilities as a doctor and his killing spree.

I wouldn't say it's common at all, and I don't think his profession directly caused his actions, nor do I think it's an excuse in ANY way for his actions... but I don't think that aspect of it can be completely ignored. If you've been talking to guys with PTSD non-stop for years, and then you're about to be deployed, you might have a very extreme different viewpoint on the war that could lead you to "snap". I think there obviously must have been *much* more at play here, but I think if this is a wakeup call for the military that their psychiatrists need a better support network, that wouldn't be bad.

[scrub-jay]

From everything I have read, I am getting the feeling that the Army is trying to go that extra mile to *make sure* that it wasn't the job that pushed him to the edge - by making sure that all people in the same situation are offered the support they may/may not need. Honestly, I think they are trying to do *something* even though most likely this was a highly individualized case - the fault should remain on the responsible party - and yet, most want an explanation that can be dealt with. I agree however, that I am not seeing the connection, but if there is a connection between profession and this type of response (which I highly doubt) - I am glad the Army is taking whatever precautions they can to support their staff. I really hope this does not become a stigma on Army pyschiatrists (kind of like with Postal Workers).

[Rapunzel]

When I clicked on the news sites today it appears that this man was definitely acting on a violent ideology - and that any attempt to connect his actions to job stress is really just his anguished family trying to make some sense from this awful nightmare they must be going through.

The reality appears he really was committing a pre-meditated, deliberately terrorist attack:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-h...ory?id=9030873

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.

I've been reading that fellow Muslims (such as an imam in the area of Ft. Hood) were starting to see some serious warning signs along with his military colleagues that this man was definitely showing open support for violence of a terrorist nature. He had no reason to be in the place that he was that day - the only purpose of his visit there was to be in an area where he could inflict a great deal of damage in a very short period of time (ie a large gathering place for soldiers).

When I read about what got this guy into trouble in medical school and residency - he had some serious red flags popping up all over the place. What I just do not understand is how he could just slip through the cracks - why he wasn't just plain kicked out of residency and definitely placed under very close observation.

I don't disagree with you guys at all, and clearly there are lots of facts emerging that will tell the whole story of this guy. I had read this series in the New York Times that I just thought raised interesting points, and that's where I was coming from: http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.c...gunman/?ref=us. Well, that and the fact that since my BF is at Walter Reed psychiatry right now, we've just had interesting conversations about it-- the fact that this guy clearly slipped through the cracks.