Your insight please?

There is a blog post on a "doctor's wives" blog that I found quite intriguing. There aren't many attending-wives that contribute to that blog, and I would love some insight about what is said in this post from some wives who have been there:
http://doctorwives.blogspot.com/2010...tor-wives.html

What are your thoughts on life after training and the "light at the end of the tunnel"? Can you tell us in-training-wives about it??

This looks like an interesting blog--will take a closer look at it. In response to your question, I'm an attending's wife (hubby has been an attending for five years). Overall, things are great post-training. His hours are still rough (75-80 hours per week on average, including in-house call), but much better than in residency! Though the in-house weekend call still irritates me. Pretty much ruins the weekend on those weekends that he has to take call in-house (like this weekend). Since we haven't lived in our area that long and I don't have any good friends here, I usually find myself going out alone when he takes in-house call, which is okay some of the time but I do get lonely. But in-house call is just a reality of DH's specialty that will never change.

I guess for me the biggest difference between residency and post-residency is that now when he's home, he's not spending his time studying, which seemed to take up every last minute of our time together in residency. Now, he has a lot more "free time" and I feel that we're spending way more quality time together now than in residency. It's not as much quality time as I would like to have, but that's not because of his hours--it's because he has a couple of very time-consuming hobbies that he spends most of his free time on.

One of the biggest perks of attendinghood is that we were able to have complete geographical flexibility for DH's job. We decided to move somewhere we had never been before for DH's first job, just to see what living there would be like. Turns out we loved it there! So I'm happy that attendinghood allowed us the opportunity to move somewhere of our choice, whereas we were more constrained location-wise for residency. Another nice perk of attendinghood is the vacation time. DH gets a ton of vacation time, which helps to make up for all the in-house call that he has to take. DH being an attending has also allowed me the flexibility to choose what I want to do as a career. I worked some pretty awful jobs during residency to help make ends meet.

Residency was really hard on me and our marriage was strained during it. During residency, any of DH's "free time" was completely taken up by studying. I felt that we never saw each other, which was really difficult given that we were in a new city in which I knew no one. While he was in residency, I always felt like I came second to medicine. However, since he's finished residency, things are back to being great. I honestly no longer feel second to medicine, but that feeling didn't come right away. It took a year or two of attendinghood to reach that point. One thing that helps in regard to not feeling that medicine dominates our lives is that when he's finished work for the day he leaves the work at work, mentally and emotionally. He was less able to do that as a resident because he was more stressed all the time.

[houseelf]

I will respond to this in a private forum. I am not sure what the consensus is on whether it should be moved.

I will tell you that parts of it made me snort snot bubbles.

[Ladybug]

The work hours are not that much different. The hours are better, but it's never going to be a 40/hr/wk type of job for most of us. It takes several years to get on your feet financially, and there is a lot of new responsibilities and stress that come with being the attending. It's better in some ways (freedom to name our own vacation dates, more money and choices), and harder in other ways (office politics, colleagues not pulling their weight, pressure to produce volume, employees quitting, etc). It just changes...like all things. Different problems and different stresses. I think most attending spouses try to keep these things quiet because we know how hard training is and you need to believe in something to make it through. It does get better, but it's a process not a finish line. We're never going to be living on easy street especially with the way health care is moving. The first two years out were very hard on our marriage. Starting a practice is very stressful, but things have settled and we're in a very good place now. Not where I imagined, but still good.

Now DH daydreams about retirement. Like I said, you have to believe in something. I hope no retirees tells us it's still stressful. Just kindly lie to us, please. Tell us you fly to various tropical beaches, play golf and tennis all day, eat freshly caught lobsters, visit all historically significant European sites that you never had time to do while working, visit your well-adjusted, successful children and superstar grandchildren, start a charity for children in a economically depressed, tropical location, be awarded the nobel peace prize for said charity....huh, what, did you say something? I was just dreaming about life after working.

Hey SD wife-is that south dakota? My husband is starting there this next week. I'd love to chat sometime!

I will respond to this in a private forum. I am not sure what the consensus is on whether it should be moved.

I will tell you that parts of it made me snort snot bubbles.

Sorry for being ignorant (I'm very new), but I'm no familiar with the private forums or how to use them. Should I not have posted on this subject?

[GrayMatterWife]

She writes: " And I have amazed myself at what I've been able to endure as the wife of a doctor . . ."

Are you kidding me? It's nice you think you're amazing. I think you're boring. Yeah, what an accomplishment it is to be a physician's wife. Please.

She writes, speaking to hypothetical attendings' wives: "What exotic location did you travel to when money wasn't a factor? What thoughts crossed your mind when you moved into your dream house and furnished it without hand me downs? What was the first car you bought with leather seats, navigation system, power-everything? Did you cry tears of joy when you wrote your first 5-figure check to a charity that has touched your heart? How does it feel to look at a menu and not make decisions based on prices? Is it tons of fun to go shopping for clothes in brand-name stores and not the Salvation Army? And why can't we talk about these things without feeling like we are bragging??? Personally, I want to hear these stories. I want to hear what the light at the end of the tunnel brings. While I'm living in a crappy house, not even able to afford eating off the dollar menu at McDonald's. . . "

Wow. Is it possible to sound more vapid, superficial, and self-absorbed? Yes, please let's all talk about how it makes YOU feel to write a large check to charity. How about this? How do the people your money is helping feel in the struggles of their everyday lives?

And, by the way, you actually believe that once he becomes an attending that money won't be an issue? I take it you flunked home ec in high school...where they teach you how to balance a check book.

Yes, yes--you suffer SO greatly in residency because you live in a...crappy house. So put upon! News flash: many people are homeless. Many people never live in a nice home. You have to suck it up temporarily. Try this: instead of making yourself out as the long-suffering victim who can feel inspired only by stories about the salvation to come, consider how unbelievably shallow you sound. Got a roof over your head? Married to a good man? Healthy? Promising future on the horizon? Then shut the h*ll up.

And what's wrong with hand-me-down furniture? Do you assume that attendings' wives that decorate with this are married to less impressive husbands?

You sound utterly misinformed, self-absorbed, dull and materialistic. What are you...twelve?

Initial thought? I would not want to be friends with you.

Hey SD wife-is that south dakota? My husband is starting there this next week. I'd love to chat sometime!

It's not South Dakota I'd still love to chat, though!

She writes: " And I have amazed myself at what I've been able to endure as the wife of a doctor . . ."

Are you kidding me? It's nice you think you're amazing. I think you're boring. Yeah, what an accomplishment it is to be a physician's wife. Please.

She writes, speaking to hypothetical attendings' wives: "What exotic location did you travel to when money wasn't a factor? What thoughts crossed your mind when you moved into your dream house and furnished it without hand me downs? What was the first car you bought with leather seats, navigation system, power-everything? Did you cry tears of joy when you wrote your first 5-figure check to a charity that has touched your heart? How does it feel to look at a menu and not make decisions based on prices? Is it tons of fun to go shopping for clothes in brand-name stores and not the Salvation Army? And why can't we talk about these things without feeling like we are bragging??? Personally, I want to hear these stories. I want to hear what the light at the end of the tunnel brings. While I'm living in a crappy house, not even able to afford eating off the dollar menu at McDonald's. . . "

Wow. Is it possible to sound more vapid, superficial, and self-absorbed? Yes, please let's all talk about how it makes YOU feel to write a large check to charity. How about this? How to the people your money is helping feel in the struggles of their everyday lives?

Yes, yes--you suffer SO greatly in residency because you live in a...crappy house. So put upon! News flash: many people are homeless. Many people never live in a nice home. You have to suck it up temporarily. Try this: instead of making yourself out as the long-suffering victim who can feel inspired only by stories about the salvation to come, consider how unbelievably shallow you sound. Got a roof over your head? Married to a good man? Healthy? Promising future on the horizon? Then shut the h*ll up.

And what's wrong with hand-me-down furniture? Do you assume that attendings' wives that decorate with this are married to less impressive husbands?

You sound utterly misinformed, self-absorbed, dull and materialistic. What are you...twelve?

Initial thought? I would not want to be friends with you.

So are you saying that she is totally expecting something that is just not reality? I guess I'm just curious to know what the *REALITY* of our future is. There are certainly people who expect to be rolling in the dough when they are done. I have a friend in real life who always says "When my husband is a wealthy doctor I will do this and that..." This particular friend is quite self-absorbed and a gold-digger. I'd kinda like a reason to tell her she is getting her hopes up too high

Seriously though, I realize that the poster on the blog has pretty high expectations. But as I am currently living in a tiny apartment with 2 kids, have only bought myself 1 shirt in the last 2 years, and have cat-scratched furniture "decorating" my home... I can sort of understand where the blogger is coming from. I want to know that I won't have to live this way forever.

I realize that a lot of things about the medical life get more difficult than they are in medical school. But having a decent income would make it all easier to swallow than it sometimes is now (at least, that's the way I would imagine it to be.)

[GrayMatterWife]

So are you saying that she is totally expecting something that is just not reality? I guess I'm just curious to know what the *REALITY* of our future is. There are certainly people who expect to be rolling in the dough when they are done. I have a friend in real life who always says "When my husband is a wealthy doctor I will do this and that..." This particular friend is quite self-absorbed and a gold-digger. I'd kinda like a reason to tell her she is getting her hopes up too high

Seriously though, I realize that the poster on the blog has pretty high expectations. But as I am currently living in a tiny apartment with 2 kids, have only bought myself 1 shirt in the last 2 years, and have cat-scratched furniture "decorating" my home... I can sort of understand where the blogger is coming from. I want to know that I won't have to live this way forever.

I realize that a lot of things about the medical life get more difficult than they are in medical school. But having a decent income would make it all easier to swallow than it sometimes is now (at least, that's the way I would imagine it to be.)

What am I saying is to be very careful when you hold yourself out to be a victim, and consider what your "suffering" may sound like to other people.

Everyone here can understand "where she's coming from"--we've all gone without in the name of getting through training. Her story is not interesting or unique, but nevertheless, she seems to be under the impression that she is "due" something for having gone through it.

Here's the deal: if you are "suffering" residency in the name of money and social prestige, you are going to be sorely disappointed. You'll probably just find some other reason to declare yourself a victim after residency (his hours, his pay--it's never enough, your house, whatever). Only, next time around, you'll sound even more tone deaf.

If she wants some inspiration, she should consider this: life is hard, and it's a lot of hard work, so get over it. It's a privilege to be able to get the training to be able to be an attending and provide for your family. Thank your lucky stars that you have this opportunity. And, no matter how hard it is at times, it's not exactly like it is a life sentence in a Turkish prison camp. Get over yourself.

So are you saying that she is totally expecting something that is just not reality? I guess I'm just curious to know what the *REALITY* of our future is.

I would say this depends on what the spouse's specialty is. Spouses who are in the specialties whose salaries are known to be high such as radiology, urology, derm, etc. will usually have higher incomes than those who are in specialties like family practice, peds, internal medicine, etc. Not to say that those in family practice, peds, etc. have low incomes--of course these are still very high compared to the average American worker's salary--but they are usually lower than those in these other specialties I mentioned, and therefore it may be more of a challenge to "live large" as this blogger describes on these incomes if you have several kids, med school loans to repay, a practice to start and all of its associated expenses, etc.

[GrayMatterWife]

OK...where did all this come from?

I participate in the Debates Forum sometimes, but I am not nasty. I don't know why I am being so nasty about this weblogger.

Something about her tone just left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

I re-read my posts. My responses surprised even me.

OK...where did all this come from?

I participate in the Debates Forum sometimes, but I am not nasty. I don't know why I am being so nasty about this weblogger.

Something about her tone just left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

I re-read my posts. My responses surprised even me.

Well I sure appreciate your honesty. And I certainly agree with your attitude. People who complain too much put me off.

Thank you for your insight, too, sunnysideup!

One other thing I want to mention (although I felt this way when my husband was in residency too) is that both of us feel the need to "hide" what he does when socializing with other people who are not in the medical profession or another high-powered profession like law, finance, etc. This is based on some negative experiences we both have had.

For instance, my husband is involved in a team sport as a hobby. When the inevitable introductions were made, and he revealed what he does, he was subjected to many ribbings about his job that he feels have created a permanent rift between him and his teammates that can never be repaired. In other words, he feels like he will never be "one of the guys" because of his profession--that the other guys in "regular jobs" won't ever fully accept him. He continues to feel this way because of the "comments" they continue to make about his job.

I feel some of this in my own interactions with women I meet. I do not tell anyone I meet what DH does unless I know them really well. I try to avoid telling them what he does, because I don't like the "assumptions" and "judgments" people make of you when they find out your spouse's career, which I have experienced in the past. I don't want to do anything to create this kind of "rift" with other people. I barely know anyone here in our current city (we haven't lived here that long) and I don't want to do anything that will make me seem any more "different" from other women than I already feel (such as the way I feel different because we don't have children yet).

[PrincessFiona]

I thought her post was thought-provoking. My take on it is that she was wondering out loud what it is like to be finished and have all of those things that we ALL dreamed about during residency.

We are a good 8 years out of training, so I'll respond.

What was it like to get the first paycheck? DH called me half-hysterical because...we underestimated how much the taxman would take out. We had sort of figured out our own budget and immediately realized that we were ... going to be screwed. Unfortunately, what people sometimes forget is that once training is over, student loans, etc come out of deferment. As it turned out, we were able to defer our SunTrust loans for 2 more years until he became partner, so that helped. We weren't living in our dream house, though it certainly beat what we were living in during residency and fellowship in particular. I know Kelly can chime in in agreement here, but there were times where I couldn't drive to Minneapolis to see her simply because I didn't have gas money. I couldn't buy things at garage sales...our budget was tight. We had most of the rooms in our home decorated in used furniture. Our formal living room held the porch furniture that came with the house.

I admit to feeling my first real twinges of bitterness then. So much hard work and sacrifice and we were not in a position to even buy a living room sofa. I also could not take the kids to McDonalds as an attending wife. I paid cash for all groceries to keep things in check.

We had one car all through residency and fellowship. One. We didn't get a second vehicle until he was a good 2 years out of training.

It's complicated.

I know people who experienced things differently though ... who took out as much money in loans as they could for the dream house and cars right off the bat. It worked out for some of them, but I know one couple who practically lost their shirts trying to live the life so soon after training ended.

Fast forward a few years. We did end up moving and getting into a bigger, nicer house ... we both have the cars that we want ... I have a used VW Eurovan with custom leather seats and he has a VW Phaeton. We bought both vehicles used and in order for me to get my custom VW, I had to drive my old VW for 3 years with no air conditioning (but paid off). Why? We needed to put money aside for another vehicle. The repair to my AC would have been too expensive and we didn't want a loan adding 500$ plus to our budget every month. Though we have paid back some of our consumer loans from training, my student loans hang heavily over our heads.

It took a good 7 years post-training for us to get in a better place financially. I still don't have that dream home or custom furniture. I am actually sitting on a chair that I bought from a used furniture store (but I love this chair and hope to save up to have it recovered at some point) and the sofa across from me is ..... a $150 IKEA sofa. <shame> I am looking at a sofa/loveseat set...but it is at the used furniture store. We have 5 children, so as much as I want to just buy my dream living room (it would cost a good $6000) I can't. I can, however, do $340 for the used set that I found. :/

That was our choice though. We have 2 children in private school and pay preschool for another. We also vowed after paying down our training debt that we would not use credit cards again unless it was a total emergency. We have them, but they have no balance and we want to keep it that way now. They are money-sucking criminals.

Life is definitely better post-training. I will say that I experienced the weirdest, rudest comment ever that made me really upset yesterday. My daughter has a friend whose family has been teetering on the edge of foreclosure for years. We have even helped them out financially. The man turned to me yesterday and told me that our 14 year old daughter is such a "firecracker" because Thomas and I chose "material rewards" instead of parenting. He went on to say that if Thomas was home more and focused more on his kids that our older two wouldn't struggle. "I chose to be around for my children and give up material goods to be a good father and your husband didn't."

Holy sheep shit....and I don't even know where I am going with this post anymore! This family lives in a house twice the size of ours (granted, they are losing it because dad hasn't really worked in 2 years) and owns multiple acres of land. It made Thomas and I both so upset that we laid in bed last night talking about training, the time since training, our children and our choices.....

I sincerely hope that the writer of that blog post gets what she is looking for post-training. If you know her, tell her to make sure her husband does Radiology or Anesthesia

Kris