Norma McCorvey

[Rapunzel]

I'm sorry if my question makes you uncomfortable. I have encountered a few people who have stated that while they could never have an elective abortion they don't care if others do. That is an odd juxtaposition that I have always been curious about. I don't understand why a person would apply a seperate logic on the issue of abortion - ie it isn't OK if I do it but it's fine if others do. So, I am curious as to how this mindset comes about and I am particularly curious as to how a woman who has given birth comes to the conclusion that elective abortion is OK for others. Unfortunately the few people I have known in life with this view have not elaborated on their reasoning (although until now none of the people I've known with this opinion have been mothers so this adds a new twist) so if anyone would care to elaborate I am all ears!

Jennifer,
Sorry to disappoint you with my lack of response. If you lived in the area I would meet you to discuss this over a cup of coffee. With a few ground rules.
This is not something I am interested in debating on this website.

[Rapunzel]

OK. I understand that this can be too emotional an issue for some.

So, would anyone else care to explain this point of view to me?

Because I have to go off of my own imagination here at the moment I see three particular reasons that people would not personally be willing to undergo elective abortion:

1)That person views abortion as the taking of human life on religious reasons.

2)That person views abortion as the taking of human life on non-religious (ie logic or scientific) reasons.

3)That person feels very uncomfortable with the medical procedure due to fear of complications or the medical procedure itself (similar to people who don't like needles or fear the idea of going "under the knife").

With the first two reasons I cannot fathom why a person would feel that others should have the ability to arbitrarily (without rape or medical necessity as an issue) abort and thus end a human life. That seems to be a direct conflict that would require twists and turns in logic to justify. The third reason, however, would make sense if a person views abortion purely as the excising of unwanted tissue and I don't see as many problems with a person reconciling reason #3 with the idea that although they would never submit to a voluntary abortion they don't care if others do.

So, that is what I am thinking at the moment. Anyone care to elaborate, disagree, or provide insight?

It's not really an issue of emotion, for me. I think that this is such a touchy subject that a discussion can quickly turn into a debate (which I'm not interested in) which can quickly turn into personal attacks (certainly not interested in that).
I think that by discussing it in person, you are more likely to remember that the person you are talking to is entitled to their opinion and has feelings.
I also think that you would get a better converstation out of me in person. There are just things I will not say/post on a public forum like this!
That's all.

[Rapunzel]

I just edited my post to elaborate about the same time you posted! I don't think it would change your response, but I didn't want to catch you too off guard!

[PrincessFiona]

abortion

So, I am curious as to how this mindset comes about and I am particularly curious as to how a woman who has given birth comes to the conclusion that elective abortion is OK for others. Unfortunately the few people I have known in life with this view have not elaborated on their reasoning (although until now none of the people I've known with this opinion have been mothers so this adds a new twist) so if anyone would care to elaborate I am all ears!

I think that this is such a sensitive issue that it is why we are all wanting to tread so lightly. I will say this, Jennifer. I haven't ever had an abortion or contemplated it...I am pretty conservative on this issue. At the same time, I have had friends who have had abortions....many of them have paid a heavy emotional price...and some haven't..perhaps because there is such a strong pro-choice movement. I still feel a great deal of compassion and friendship towards those people.

I think that abortion has been sold to women as a perfectly acceptable alternative and in many ways that makes me sad....partially because I don't think that women always know what they are getting themselve into when they make that "choice"...I knew girls in college that got pregnant at frat parties, didn't know the dads...and weren't that stressed out about it because...they would just get an abortion. I have to say that I have a problem with that....but I also think that they were acting in a way that society has deemed acceptable and they may even have felt pressure by family and friends to "do the right thing" by aborting... I know a lot of women who later regret their decision when they become pregnant with a 'wanted' baby and see that heart beating for the first time at 7 weeks or so on the ultrasound screen.

I feel sorry for people who make that choice when they are younger and regret it later when they are older...

One issue that I will stand up on and take a very firm negative stance is partial birth abortion. I do not think that that should be an available choice...I think it is barbaric. We condemn young girls who kill/abandon their babies right after deliver and yet we allow for the legal killing of babies within days of their due date .... that is a real problem for me.

This is a very hard issue to tackle...and maybe I shouldn't have posted about Norma.....sorry about that.

kris

[Rapunzel]

Personally, I don't see why the subject should be viewed as taboo. I am purely asking for reasoning behind opinions on what is a personal but also a highly political issue. I do recognize, however, that many cannot set their emotions aside on the issue and that leads to a break-down in looking at abortion from a logical and reasoned standpoint. That unfortunately plays into the hands of political entities on both sides of the fence. I think women are done a great disservice by keeping the topic so emotionally charged that it is taboo.

[Rapunzel]

Let me add this as well: I have contemplated having an abortion and I have put myself into a position where others would feel abortion was perfectly justified. I also have friends growing up who faced this decision as well as friends in adulthood. Because of this I have faced the reasoning for and against and can look back on this issue with my emotions set aside. Perhaps I am unique in that regard?

[PrincessFiona]

emotionally charged

I don't necessarily disagree with you, Jennifer. That seems to be a common theme that goes against political change...even getting involved in political debates on Iraq/WMD or other things can become such an emotional thing for people that we (ok...I'll include myself here ) tend to become overwhelmed by our feelings...that makes it hard to listen objectively to the other side. I'm as guilty as the next person....

Hey...I'm happy to debate you/talk to you about it....

kris

[SueC]

My answer to your question on would anyone else care to elaborate on their pro-choice stance:
Nope, not me!!

[Auspicious]

I have encountered a few people who have stated that while they could never have an elective abortion they don't care if others do. That is an odd juxtaposition that I have always been curious about. I don't understand why a person would apply a seperate logic on the issue of abortion - ie it isn't OK if I do it but it's fine if others do.

I am just speculating here, but how about the possiblity that although they don't consider their fetus a full-fledged human, they still feel emotional attachment to it? Sort of like people who say "I just love this house so much that I could never just sell it and move out. Of course if other people aren't attached to their homes and want to sell them and and move away, they should be allowed to do that."

I'm not saying fetuses are like houses, I'm just using that as an example of the idea that you don't have to consider something human in order to be very, very attached to it. Maybe they would refuse an abortion because it didn't match with their emotions even though it does match up with their morals.

OR maybe they think that it's immoral, but shouldn't be illegal. Personally I think that adultery isn't right, but I don't think we should start throwing people in jail for it.

[Rapunzel]

I'm not saying fetuses are like houses, I'm just using that as an example of the idea that you don't have to consider something human in order to be very, very attached to it. Maybe they would refuse an abortion because it didn't match with their emotions even though it does match up with their morals.

Does this mean it might be an "ownership" issue for some? I suppose that could explain why so many women seem to go through mourning periods once they abort.

One note: a human fetus is genetically a human with its own distinct genetic data (ie it is distinct genetically from the person in which it develops) and thus, if one is going to observe modern scientific findings, must be regarded as a seperate and distinct "human". Perhaps the issue is that many people make the mistake of not realizing a human fetus is human? Although your point was that considering a fetus human makes no difference on emotional attachment which is a very interesting idea.

OR maybe they think that it's immoral, but shouldn't be illegal. Personally I think that adultery isn't right, but I don't think we should start throwing people in jail for it.

Laws are nothing more than society's morals written down and enforced. Thus since incest and infanticide are regarded as immoral they are outlawed. Various societies regard various actions as immoral and thus outlaw them accordingly. If one finds elective abortion immoral to the point of endangering another human then it would follow that one would have no problem with elective abortion being illegal.

*edited for repeated redundancy :P

[Auspicious]

Perhaps the issue is that many people make the mistake of not realizing a human fetus is human?

I don't think so. I think it's widely understood that a fetus conceived by two humans is a human fetus. Perhaps I should have said people "don't have to consider something a person in order to be very, very attached to it."

[PrincessFiona]

the problem with these kinds of debates

I guess the problem with these kinds of debates online, and the reason that they can become so emotionally charged is that we all decide how we feel based on our upbringing, religious beliefs, etc...so at the core of these issues is really...who we are...and as we battle to stake our claim on our position, we're also putting ourselves and our hearts out there....this is why I probably shouldn't have even mentioned Norma...I thought it was interesting that she had flipped sides....maybe we should stick to Martha Stewart debates around here? 8)

Julie, I also don't think that people think the human fetus isn't human....I think it is much more difficult to conceptualize the idea of being pregnant ... and associate it with a baby. In all of my pregnancies until I really started to feel the baby move...it was a very abstract idea.....even this pregnancy (#4) seemed kind of 'unreal' until the baby started kicking and moving.....Many people also argue at which point 'life' actually begins...are the sperm and egg alive? technically yes....is the fertilized egg now "alive"....is the baby "alive" when it's heart starts beating or perhaps when it's brain is capable of emotion or cognition? There are so many gray areas in this issue...and I know that many of us probably feel strongly one way or the other...and are unlikely to change the minds of anyone else....by arguing the issue, I guess we are justifying our beliefs?

I do recognize, however, that many cannot set their emotions aside on the issue and that leads to a break-down in looking at abortion from a logical and reasoned standpoint.

This is common in anything we debate or talk about be it here or anywhere else....think about how people respond to the idea of working mom vs. stay-at-home mom, gay marriages in Canada...the list goes on.

We make many of our decisions with our hearts....and we all know that that leads to strong feelings.

My biggest concern with debating an issue like this here is honestly that people's feelings can get hurt...and with people coming here for support during tough times..especially new people who don't know is that well...that we may end up alienating our hurting someone...I don't want that to happen either.

kris

[Auspicious]

Re: the problem with these kinds of debates

Yeah, no problem. While I agree that people rarely change one another's minds in situation like this, I have found that my own opinions have grown more sophisticated and nuanced (than they were previously) from listening to what others have to say on this issue, which is why I find discussions like this rewarding if they're carried out in a civil tone.

There's no point in upsetting anyone, though.