Norma McCorvey

Re: the problem with these kinds of debates

There are so many gray areas in this issue...and I know that many of us probably feel strongly one way or the other...and are unlikely to change the minds of anyone else....by arguing the issue, I guess we are justifying our beliefs?

Am I sure I really want to keep responding to this topic?

Kris, I wholeheartedly agree that we are unlikely to change anyone's mind. I respect your opinion and right to it and I hope that my opinion is also respected without making some kind of judgement call about who I am or what kind of person I am.....and sometimes it starts feeling that way.

By the nature of some of these posts on this thread (and other's on the topic), I feel like there is an agenda to change minds/opinions. So, while I find it interesting to hear what other people believe and why, I doubt that my opinion is going to change much. In fact, that is why I didn't respond further to some of these questions. If I really felt like someone was just "interested in hearing where I was coming from" that would be one thing. I don't feel like getting into a debate about it or justifying what I believe ad naseum in this forum.

btw -- to clarify my prior stance on me not personally having an abortion. It is difficult for me to imagine a situation that would even merit consider of abortion at this stage in my life. An unwanted pregnancy would be much less a big deal now than it would have been 10 years ago. I can think of a few instances where I would consider it -- certainly rape or medcal necessity (my life in danger). But what if my triple screen test in a few weeks shows the possibility of serious problems? And I undergo further testing which shows that there are serious, serious problems? Depending on the situation and the advice of a doctor, I would consider abortion. (Please, please don't send me nasty posts on this -- I am talking serious defects that result in stillbirth or that sort of thing. Not down's syndrome or cleft palate or things of that nature).

[Rapunzel]

Re: the problem with these kinds of debates

Yeah, no problem. While I agree that people rarely change one another's minds in situation like this, I have found that my own opinions have grown more sophisticated and nuanced (than they were previously) from listening to what others have to say on this issue, which is why I find discussions like this rewarding if they're carried out in a civil tone.

There's no point in upsetting anyone, though.

I agree with Julie, but if Kristen thinks we shouldn't talk on the subject then I'll be OK with that.

[PrincessFiona]

wait

Wait, wait, wait...I'm not saying that we shouldn't talk about it...I don't know what I'm saying now...I think I'm trying to walk a fine line here. I love a good debate....even..a brawl at times...(Jenn, I think you know that!). I don't think that we shouldn't debate, I am just worried that with really sensitive topics like this things will get out of hand. Now I feel like the website meanie or something. I just know that there have been times in the past where...well...hysteria has broken out on topics...Jennifer probably remembers some of those as well...I have also been called to the carpet for my own..excited arguments...

So...I'm not trying to single anyone out...I do think that we are capable of mature debate...I'm just worried about people getting hurt.

Am I totally wishy-washy..

kris

tucking tail between legs and feeling like my dog ...

[Auspicious]

Kris has a valid point. I probably wouldn't discuss this topic, say, within hearing range of my fellow patrons at a restaurant for fear of upsetting them. In a way the same principle applies to a public forum. I think we've thrashed through this topic sufficiently for now. I did like hearing everyone's ideas on the topic, though. 8)

[Rapunzel]

Re: the problem with these kinds of debates

btw -- to clarify my prior stance on me not personally having an abortion. It is difficult for me to imagine a situation that would even merit consider of abortion at this stage in my life. An unwanted pregnancy would be much less a big deal now than it would have been 10 years ago. I can think of a few instances where I would consider it -- certainly rape or medcal necessity (my life in danger). But what if my triple screen test in a few weeks shows the possibility of serious problems? And I undergo further testing which shows that there are serious, serious problems? Depending on the situation and the advice of a doctor, I would consider abortion. (Please, please don't send me nasty posts on this -- I am talking serious defects that result in stillbirth or that sort of thing. Not down's syndrome or cleft palate or things of that nature).

OK, I'm going to stop talking after this because I think that is what Kristen wants. But, I have encountered two situations that have led me to consider an abortion option. The first situation occurred before I ever met my husband during my wild days in college. I made a mistake at the last minute that I am LUCKY did not change my life or literally destroy it. I was young, stupid, naive, poor, etc, etc. What would I have done had I gotten pregnant (which I may have been in retrospect because I became violently ill a few weeks later - and I can now look back on the symptoms with extreme suspicion)? So, in that instance I really only had my parents' teachings to rely on - since I was little more than a child myself and without much experience in dealing with things independently. For that reason I think it is SO important that parents make very clear to their children (of both genders) exactly what the consequences of sexual intercourse are - and that we make it clear that "protection" has a failure rate.

The second time I encountered abortion as a possibility was just a couple of years ago when I became pregnant with my youngest, Sophia (who is now a 17 month-old ball of energy). I hit a point during that pregnancy (near the beginning to be exact) where I became very depressed and with a husband in internship and three little children I felt completely overwhelmed. My obstetrician urged me to abort the baby. I came very, very close in my stressed and depressed state to agreeing. I made what was a very difficult decision at the time to keep the baby. I felt like I was making decisions in a huge grey fog and it was very hard. Once I made this decision I switched obstetricians because I felt highly unsupported by the previous ob who urged me to take the easy way out. It took a few months for the cloud to lift and the support of my new ob made an enormous difference in my view of how I was going to cope being alone with three children and a baby. Once the depression lifted and the stress faded I was absolutely surprised that I ever contemplated aborting that pregnancy. I realized that the option to abort the pregnancy was actually suggested by the first ob and it was his enormous influence over me in that difficult time that made me even consider it. I also realized that having an abortion would not have solved my problems. A baby did complicate my life considerably and made it much more difficult, but aborting that baby would have added a grief and depression to my life that would have taken years at the least to recover from (not to mention medication and therapy). So, I have been seriously faced with this as an adult married woman and I have had to make real decisions on this matter. I am always curious as to how others would react to similar situations. I do look back at my decision a couple of years ago with some emotion - mostly one of relief (Sopia is very, very difficult and my life is much harder BUT in many ways I would have suffered much more had I made a different choice). I also look at the way my first ob reacted and I know that if voluntary, non-medically necessary abortion was illegal this physician would perhaps have been much less likely to offer it is the best option - or even an option at all. So, for me, these issues are personal, but at the same time I feel that I have to step back and look at things rationally and logically. I'm also one of those people that has to be able to argue both sides well in order to finally decide which way I swing.

Anyway, that was a long post! If Kristen feels that we should not discuss this further on her board then I'm OK with that.

[Rapunzel]

For the record I was in the middle of typing my last post in this thread (I obviously lied!!! ) while you guys were responding! OK, thread is over! (Although I would openly debate this topic with my friends/family at a restaraunt where the other patrons could hear - that's for sure! I'm not one to be scared of other's views and I don't like to tread on eggshells around people who get offended easily. Gotta love that first ammendment in public places! - But Kris's site is not public - it is privately owned - all hail Queen Kris! ).

Removing fingers from keyboard.
Zipping mouth.
No more responses to thread. :P

[PrincessFiona]

site ownership

Correction...'Kris's site is publically owned by everyone here that donates and participates and by all of the admins: Kelly, Jenn, Sally, Luanne and ThuVan who have also contributed to the costs In addition, many other people have donated...including Nellie, Sue, Julie.....the list goes one...please add your name! Some of you have also donated privately....We are finishing our NFP filing at the end of this month (at least that is the plan) and then all of the members will be a part of owning this place.

Kris is just trying to keep people from emailing her because they are offended by her point of view or someone elses It happens more frequently than you think

kris