Bin Laden -- anyone else watching this?

[TigerLily]

I think this sums it up nicely:

"Faced with the death of a man, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibility of everyone before God and man, and hopes and pledges that every event is not an opportunity for a further growth of hatred, but of peace.” -The Vatican's Statement on Bin Laden's death

Ahhhh thank you so much for posting that. All day I've been wresting with how I feel. On one hand, it seems good that someone so evil is gone. He wanted people dead, he was promoting hatred and violence and with so much influence he was very very dangerous. But at the same time, rejoicing hatred, no matter what side it is coming from just doesn't sit right with me.

[GrayMatterWife]

I'm sorry I said anything. I don't think of it as rejoicing in death, per se. I think of it as rejoicing in the end of a person of perpetual evil. I don't think wishing for an end to makes me less of a Christian, or being thrilled that we finally dealt with an enemy suggests a moral flaw. I am ecstatic that he cannot hurt anyone else.

As the President said this morning, this is a great day for America and the world is a better place with bin laden.

I'm sorry I said anything. I don't think of it as rejoicing in death, per se. I think of it as rejoicing in the end of a person of perpetual evil. I don't think wishing for an end to makes me less of a Christian, or being thrilled that we finally dealt with an enemy suggests a moral flaw. I am ecstatic that he cannot hurt anyone else.

As the President said this morning, this is a great day for America and the world is a better place with bin laden.

Without.

I don't think anything makes a person "less of a Christian" (in fact, I think inferring someone is less is very un-Christian, and I'm not one at ALL!). I just think many of us struggle with the idea of hopping around happy at the death of ANYONE, as well as question what his death will really do/mean for our current situation. I know I'm not at all sorry he's dead, I'm just concerned about what the fall out will be. I'm sure it was a huge morale boost for the troops -- it's emblematically significant for sure. It just doesn't actually FIX anything.

[GrayMatterWife]

Without.

I don't think anything makes a person "less of a Christian" (in fact, I think inferring someone is less is very un-Christian, and I'm not one at ALL!). I just think many of us struggle with the idea of hopping around happy at the death of ANYONE, as well as question what his death will really do/mean for our current situation. I know I'm not at all sorry he's dead, I'm just concerned about what the fall out will be. I'm sure it was a huge morale boost for the troops -- it's emblematically significant for sure. It just doesn't actually FIX anything.

Ah, right!! Sorry! Typing too fast. Still, it's not as bad as the time when I commented that my favorite actor is "James Earl Ray." Good grief--JONES!! I meant JONES!!

I just wish I hadn't posted how I felt. I should have stuck to the news. Every time I post about how I feel about anything, it ends up being a thread that should have been started in "Debates." I guess I just didn't think that there was much of a debate on how great this news is and how much we as a society should be rejoicing. Maybe I am cloistered: I am in the world of people directly affected by 9-11 and I also am in the world of the U.S. Court system. Maybe the combination of these two things made things "self-evident" that really aren't. But everyone I know--Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, janitor, judge--we are very proud, very excited and very happy. We understand that this is only symbolic, honestly--but it is a very important symbol. It symbolizes victory over evil. We all would have been just as thrilled if he'd been arrested. The fact that he was killed is not the point--we are ecstatic because justice was done. When I say that I wished for his death, it was because I never, ever thought that he would be captured alive and brought to justice. So I prayed and hope that he'd meet his end SOON. I just wanted justice, and--like many others--I never thought justice would come if he was alive.

If I can't rejoice in justice being done, that sort of undermines everything I've dedicated my professional life to. Judgment and justice are a big part of who I am, what I do, and what I work for. And, this time, it is particularly long-awaited and personal.

[TigerLily]

I hope nothing I said made you think that I thought anything negative about what you posted. I was just thinking that there are so many strong feelings involved in something like this. I can understand all different feelings, and I don't think that any of them are bad or wrong. I just had a hardtime pinpointing exactly how I felt. Happy he's gone, sad about the entire situation. I don't think any feeling can make you less of a Christian. Unless of course someone is feeling that they don't want to...well follow Christ? I don't know. Anyway, that is a different topic. lol

[GrayMatterWife]

I'm just concerned about what the fall out will be.

We all are. I work in the federal courthouse here, which is located just a few blocks from the Arch and across the street from Busch Stadium. Every day, I wonder: who wants to use this building or this city to make their statement? Al Qaida and every nut other there. I spend 9 hours a day in a big target on the face of the midwest...I think about it a LOT.

[GrayMatterWife]

I hope nothing I said made you think that I thought anything negative about what you posted. I was just thinking that there are so many strong feelings involved in something like this. I can understand all different feelings, and I don't think that any of them are bad or wrong. I just had a hardtime pinpointing exactly how I felt. Happy he's gone, sad about the entire situation. I don't think any feeling can make you less of a Christian. Unless of course someone is feeling that they don't want to...well follow Christ? I don't know. Anyway, that is a different topic. lol

No, no. Nothing like that. No one said anything directed at me, personally. I was not insulted or took personally anything anyone said. I am fairly thick-skinned about that sort of thing. But I did want to point out that I believe that you can be excited and joyous today without being "unChristian," given the off-shoot discussion about what the appropriate Christian response might be. But, to be fair, I can't complain, either. The discussion seemed like a natural trail from my initial comments, which certainly were not charitable or reflect any deeper contemplation of the theological meaning of death of your enemies. It is no secret to the long-timers here that I am a Christian, so my commentary may seem incongruent with my beliefs. And, Pollyanna's posting on the Vatican's position was very valuable to me: after the initial excitement of the justice being done wears off, I am sure I will be thinking about how to really understand this. The Church gives really good advice on these sorts of things--sometimes, humbling and "tough" advice that goes against our impulses.

When I said that I regretted posting, it was because I have a long-history of starting topics in a non-Debates Forum, which then unintentionally turn into topics that are hotly debated. That can be a problem because many people are not confrontational and never post in Debates. And they are uncomfortable with doing "debates" in non-Debates Forum. It can be very alienating and drive people away. Lots of different personalities here. Not everyone chooses to be opinionated and outspoken in public on controversial issues, and I think we should preserve "safe threads" where not EVERYTHING is a debate. There are even days when...**gasp** even I am just not up for a debate.

[MissCrabette]

I was bothered by Obama's speech, and I think it was a really bad idea to say that we conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden. He could've phrased it a million different ways to emphasize the fact that we tried to capture him alive and failed. It came across as very vengeful, and I don't think that's the way we want to present ourselves, justified or not. I'm flying internationally tomorrow, and I'm more than a little worried about the fallout.

I also agree with the people saying that the world isn't that much better without him. I'm sure it's a great morale boost for the military, but this isn't nearly as much of a victory as they're making it sound.

[HouseofWool]

Maybe I am in a minority, but I don't see the actions of removing Bin Laden from power as being vengeful. While at first glance, killing him may seem so, to me it is more about stemming the tide of his venom, about stopping him from enlisting more fundamentalists. Given the all-encompassing nature of his followers, holding a tribunal would have been dangerous beyond thought.

I cannot imagine being the one who actually pulled the trigger, the one who has to bear the awful knowledge that he killed someone. I also wonder how many of OBL's core group of advisers were killed as well. I have to think that at least few of them were and that it isn't being discussed so that the ramifications can play out without media influence.

[corn poffi]

I also don't really think it was "vengeful". I'm actually not quite sure what to think. War is messy, and I'm glad he's been stopped. I'm not reveling in his death or thinking that this will really change anything. It's great for troop morale, but I don't feel right "celebrating". It's definitely an odd moral conundrum.

[reciprocity]

Ah, right!! Sorry! Typing too fast. Still, it's not as bad as the time when I commented that my favorite actor is "James Earl Ray." Good grief--JONES!! I meant JONES!!

I just wish I hadn't posted how I felt. I should have stuck to the news. Every time I post about how I feel about anything, it ends up being a thread that should have been started in "Debates." I guess I just didn't think that there was much of a debate on how great this news is and how much we as a society should be rejoicing. Maybe I am cloistered: I am in the world of people directly affected by 9-11 and I also am in the world of the U.S. Court system. Maybe the combination of these two things made things "self-evident" that really aren't. But everyone I know--Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, janitor, judge--we are very proud, very excited and very happy. We understand that this is only symbolic, honestly--but it is a very important symbol. It symbolizes victory over evil. We all would have been just as thrilled if he'd been arrested. The fact that he was killed is not the point--we are ecstatic because justice was done. When I say that I wished for his death, it was because I never, ever thought that he would be captured alive and brought to justice. So I prayed and hope that he'd meet his end SOON. I just wanted justice, and--like many others--I never thought justice would come if he was alive.

If I can't rejoice in justice being done, that sort of undermines everything I've dedicated my professional life to. Judgment and justice are a big part of who I am, what I do, and what I work for. And, this time, it is particularly long-awaited and personal.

Agreed. I don't see anything wrong with celebrating a victory (even if symbolic) or justice (even if delayed) or the removal of evil from the world. The fact that these things occurred in the form of a mass-murdering terrorist being killed by U.S. troops doesn't mean that by celebrating those things you are celebrating his death.

And honestly, if someone wanted to celebrate his death, I don't think I could bring myself to hold it against them - and I spent most of law school getting guys off death row.

[moonlight]

I'm sorry I said anything. I don't think of it as rejoicing in death, per se. I think of it as rejoicing in the end of a person of perpetual evil. I don't think wishing for an end to makes me less of a Christian, or being thrilled that we finally dealt with an enemy suggests a moral flaw. I am ecstatic that he cannot hurt anyone else.

As the President said this morning, this is a great day for America and the world is a better place with bin laden.

Don't be sorry! You feel how you feel and for the most part I think we are all on the same page. He was a bad guy and we are all glad he can't continue his terror against Americans another day.

[SoonerTexan]

My gut reaction when dh told me last night?

"Great. We've just created the ultimate martyr for our enemies to worship."

And

"what is Pakistan going to do now that we've invaded their territory in a BIG way without permission?"

Pakistan has nukes and enough idiots who would threaten to use them (or something else).

I don't feel any relief over bin Laden's death, because we are fighting a hydra.

Yeah...I was wondering how much his death will truly affect Al Qaeda--you'd think they probably have backup plan/leader after almost 10 years of him being hunted down.

[diggitydot]

GMW - I'm glad you voiced your opinion. I think people *should* rejoice if that's the emotion this news creates in them. I can't, but I absolutely get and why others can. For me it has zero to do with religion as I'm not a religious person.

[ides]

I'm not dancing & rejoicing but I'm glad the scumbag was taken down, finally. It's important to nyers that he perish & his reign ends. Do I think we are safer or anymore in danger? Nope.