General Surgery

[GrayMatterWife]

First, can we please get rid of the "surgeons are assholes" stereotype?

No time soon. Surgeons have brought it upon themselves. There are a disproportionate number of assholes in the profession. Not every surgeon is an asshole, and not every surgeon who is an asshole is an asshole all the time, but I wouldn't suggest that the stereotype is not without foundation!

In all honesty, look at what they do. I'd be an asshole a lot of the time, too.

[Chrisada]

If he wants to be a surgeon then he needs to go into a surgery specialty period. DH is happiest doing surgery. IMO nothing family friendly like anesthesia will work, and he may resent you. DH would not look at anything like rads, derm. or anesthesia. It's just not his personality. DH actually hated those rotations most. Being in the OR as anesthesia is very different from being in there as the surgeon.

[corn poffi]

I still have to disagree with "surgeons are assholes". I've been working in academic medicine for 8 years and have worked with hundreds of surgeons. Maybe 10% are assholes. Yes, they all have their moments, but I'd freak out in the OR too. Even the ones with the god complex aren't that terrible. But sometimes I think I have a thicker skin than most med students and residents.

[civilspouse]

Thanks for all the replies, they are very helpful.

When I said family friendly I was basing that more on my impression from things I'd heard that surgery would tear your family apart, turn your husband into an ass and you'd never see him. Right now DH works in the lab seven days a week doing his research. He has been home and available more during the grad school years than he was when was in med school, but he doesn't make it home for dinner every night. DS and I are used to doing things on our own and we don't have any problem with DH not being available for things. I am happy when he's home, but I don't expect it.

DH did do his IM rotation the summer before grad school and he thought it was ok but doesn't really think it's for him. He has really loved the times he's gone into surgery, during grad school he's spent about a dozen days with surgeons. I think the discussion came more from my doubts about surgery and the fact that his friends from med school who are now in residency keep trying to talk him out of it. The bad experience he had the other day was only that he was in a surgery and the surgeon was being an ass, screaming at the 5th year resident. It wasn't directed at DH. DH came home after a long day and just expressed the story to me and was wondering if surgery was going to be worth it. I think right now a lot of things are changing and he just wants to make sure he's choosing the right path because we are about to reach the point where there's no turning back.

I want him to do whatever will make him happy. I don't want his to go into IM but hate it for the rest of his life just because everyone told him surgery would be to hard. Based on your responses I am feeling better that we could survive surgery if that is what he wants to do. I'm sure he would excel at it and I don't have any question that he could do it. From what I've learned on these forums I fully expect DH to be gone all the time and never be available no matter which speciality he chooses. We have discussed many times that it is our attitude that will make the difference. We will just be happy when he's home and do own thing when he's not.

[houseelf]

Hi Civil Spouse,

I would encourage you to look through our archives as this is a topic that has been frequently discussed. I wish you luck with whatever decision you make.

[oceanchild]

I just want to add that it's not unreasonable for him to consider the personalities with whom he will be working. Part of why my husband like pediatrics is that he likes pediatricians. This is something to think about when looking at particular residency programs too. Different hospitals attract different types of people.

Obviously, one attending does not a specialty make. But pretty much across the working world, you will enjoy your job more if you enjoy the people you are working with.

[peggyfromwastate]

I do feel like surgery has changed my husband. While he was always self confidant and decisive, surgery has made him arrogant. He's becoming aware of this, but it's not an easy process. He thinks he has his **** together so well that he couldn't be anything less than perfect. Kidding!!! But he is seeing how some of his comments and actions might dhow arrogance... its a start.

He never really was interested in any other area. He went between ortho and ENT and plastics. Of those I'm sure he chose the most "family friendly", but it's still surgery.

He's a surgeon first, and a dad/husband second. He thinks he can do it all and that he's the best husband and dad out there, and he believes that he works so hard "for the family". As his wife, this is what I signed up for, so I can't really complain. But I do complain. I do resent it, and it just makes me so pissed off when he takes a call from work at the dinner table when he's not taking call. I don't care if he takes the call per se, but I do care how he is so accommodating and verbose with the person calling him. Then when the call is over, he's back to being detached, bored, non communicative.

So...

My dh and I need some therapy bc we don't communicate we'll at all anymore, and perhaps you have that all worked out, but I was I think naive when I assumed he wouldn't pick up on some of the assholitis (lol- my phone autocorrected to that-- awesome) of the surgeons around him.

So I would caution against the belief that him being happy in his work day to day is the number 1 priority. Bc as a surgeon damn straight that's the #1 priority. And eventually... You might possibly get tired of being the cheerleader. At that point... It can get tough. Are you prepared to never be the #1 priority? I wasn't prepared for that... But as we have gone from residency to fellowship and the kids get older and busier, it's just more on me and he continues on his own trajectory. It's sad, but there's not a natural "rejoining" of the family after so many years if training. We are still in training if course... But I guess some small part if me thought that when residency ended there would be a cosmic shift. Ridiculous, I know.

(I'm so sorry to drag my issues into this. I don't want to hijack... I just want to address the personality disorder of narcissism that I believe must be more prevalent in surgery than other areas. It must be. It's kind if a necessary trait for them to do what they do...)

Crawling back to my cave... As they say..,

[moonlight]

This is something to think about when looking at particular residency programs too. Different hospitals attract different types of people.

Yes this. My DH rotated at hospitals in many different states in med school because of the school he attended. we saw first had the different learning cultures. Let me tell ya- it was vastly different from place to place!

We've had a couple people change from surgery to other specialties. I hope they see this and post from their perspective.

Please don't put all your eggs in one basket when it comes to picking electives.

[civilspouse]

Thank you for your honesty Peggy. You have highlighted what I think may really be bothering me. I think DH will be busy and unavailable no matter what he does, but I do worry that because of the nature of surgery he will change more. I have come to terms with the fact that I will never be his #1 priority (well most days I'm ok with it). He is a great husband and father, but he is dedicated to his work and it comes first. He is super confident and already thinks he knows everything so he will fit right in with the other surgeons. Most days I'm ok with being his cheerleader, but there are other days where I wish that he worked a regular 9-5 job, was available to us when we needed him and we wouldn't have to be 1000's of miles away from all of our family. That wont ever be the case though and I knew this was what he wanted to do when we got married.

[corn poffi]

Random FYI. He was supposed to be home at 430 pm. It is now 917 pm and he will be not be home until early tomorrow afternoon. That is surgery, and our lives. Thank the world for amazing friends, good booze, and mediocre sushi.

For perspective, I'm out with two other non-surgical residents and they've been home since noon. And he hasn't had a day off for 23 days. But whatever.

[alison]

I'm sorry Peggy! It's good that you're recognizing the disconnect with your dh and the need for therapy. My dh says ENTs are the easiest of all the surgeons to get along with. . Them and urologists. . That is totally off topic and really useless information.

Good luck! It seems like you have a great attitude about this.

[SoonerTexan]

We haven't even done the surgery rotation yet (oh goody, it's next!) and DH planning on going a surgical route unless it is ENT. However his dad is in a surgical specialty and yes, it did negatively affect DH and his entire family. Probably his marriage too, but that isn't really my business. And most definitely MILs career, but that is a different story. I think people can make it work and be happy, but we don't want it having seen what it looks like for FIL. It just isn't for us. We wouldn't be happy. He's still a great guy, awesome FIL, and great grandpa. I think you have to do a lot of thinking together as a couple. And while it is his career, it will have a huge impact on you for the rest of your life. Its humble opinion that you should have a say too, or at least fully understand what your life will be like. Good thing you are here and others can tell you

[houseelf]

My dh says ENTs are the easiest of all the surgeons to get along with. . Them and urologists.

This is fantastic advice is someone *has* to do surgery or else they will feel unfulfilled. I understand colorectal is a good post training lifestyle as well, although like anything, YMMV depending on partners, academic goals, and a whole host of other things.

I want to pipe in and say that just because surgery has a malignant reputation, lots of physicians have toxic professional lives. Surgery just might have a few more workaholics who confuse whether they work to live or live to work. There are several so called "family friendly" physicians on this board who have miserable work life balance. Any potential physician family needs to address this in the early stages and periodically review career goals against the backdrop of the family.

[peggyfromwastate]

To be fair--- if I'm speaking solely to the lifestyle of an ENT, it is not bad at all. True, there is always a presentation To prep for, an exam to study for, or CME credits to earn. Studying 1-2 hours a night is just part of the life. But as an ENT, and as an attending in the military especially, lifestyle can be very nice. There are civilian ENTs who have great lifestyles as well.

Honestly my dh could work a 40 hour per week job from home and I would still be completely overwhelmed by my kids and their activities and problems right now in spite of having an "equal partner" in parenting. Not fair for me to knock surgeons as a whole!!!

That being said, the deeper essence of my dhs character has changed a little being in an environment where a big majority of people treat him like the expert. He has earned this high opinion from the people he works with, and he has earned respect from them by treating them with respect as well. He might get a little arrogant at times, but I guess I can't knock that too much. Goodness knows ill take him as arrogant vs completely demoralized like during the tough cases where they lost a pt-- the second guessing and the guilt over a bad result is very tough. Medicine and surgery-- you are still dealing with people's lives. It's pretty big stuff.

I get annoyed sometimes bc he has little time, interest, of energy to engage in learning about things directly affecting the family. But I don't know that it's a function of his career path so much as a function of the overwhelming complexity of home life right now... I used to invest myself more into knowing about his coworkers and his schedule. I just don't have it in me right now...

Anyway...

I'll be crawling back to my cave now... Again.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

So while we are not Gen Surg, we are for this year. So, I feel like that allows me to speak confidently at least about Gen Surg intern year. It sucks, it really does. Last night, I attended a black tie event solo and have attended most things solo since residency started. I travel for business at least once/month WITH our daughter - yes, that's right, it's easier for me to fly with our 10 month old, find childcare in each city, and keep her with me than for him to watch her and we have a nanny...so that speaks to his schedule.

That being said, he has 4 assigned months of Uro in his intern year and those are by FAR the worst. The Uro intern does all pre-ops, clinic work, and discharges while on other services, there are 2-3 interns plus physician extenders who do this work. On both SICU and SurgOnc months, he was home within 1 hour of sign out almost every night. So, in the case of his program, Uro intern months are actually worse than the Gen Surg ones.

He gets 4 days off each month and we do try to maximize them. I'm definitely someone who would really, really like a Target partner but I'm learning to deal. Plus, Uro will hopefully eventually be a better lifestyle. I will NOT be ok with not being his priority. I have and will continue to kill myself to work to support a fairly decent lifestyle for us and raise our daughter (and we hope to have more soon) - I want the payoff to be that we are his first priority when he's done. He knows this...I'm not shy about telling him!!!