It will all be worth it...

[Vanquisher]

Clapping with thunderous applause for ladybug. Here, here.

[Sheherezade]

My DH used to be in the it's not worth it camp until he changed jobs. Same specialty, same patients (most of them moved with him), same city but he is MUCH happier. The expectations and the attitudes of the institution have a lot to do with his happiness. New place has more support and more time built in to schedule for things like charting. Phone calls from patients are a given, though....those will never stop and you can't put them off in favor of family without feeling like a heartless harpy.


Angie

[corn poffi]

The funny thing in our relationship is that my job is the one that's not worth it. I've been pulled into a vortex of suck that recruiters won't even touch my resume. At least residency ends eventually, and we'll be able to live in what we consider a comfortable life. However, my career choices were all so epically terrible that my measly four-year degree isn't even worth it, IMO.

So yeah, it's all relative. He wouldn't change a thing. I would change every career-related decision I've ever made in my life. In fact, sometimes I envy him. He knows what he wants and he's working hard to get it. I only know what I don't want, and as hard as I've been working to change it, I'm going nowhere.

I'm gonna say it for the record: we knew what we were getting into with his career choice. I'm the one who was clueless with my career choice. 99% of our conflicts are due to my choices, not his.

[Chrisada]

Hmmm.... So because some of us have a different perspective we are now "oppressive and passive aggressive and shaming." Ok. And I've never seen any dialogue shut down. There is plenty of medicine sucks dialogue going on ALL the time here. And that's why the it's not all that bad camp usually keep their mouths shut. You're the bad guys if you don't think it's all that bad. So much for an open dialogue and discussion.


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[Ladybug]

Hmmm.... So because some of us have a different perspective we are now "oppressive and passive aggressive and shaming." Ok. And I've never seen any dialogue shut down. There is plenty of medicine sucks dialogue going on ALL the time here. And that's why the it's not all that bad camp usually keep their mouths shut. You're the bad guys if you don't think it's all that bad. So much for an open dialogue and discussion.


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"If I say, " no way, wasn't worth it" I will get pats on the back because misery loves company but at the same time folks like yourself will find the response discouraging. "

That's not shaming? Are you kidding me? It completely devalues my experience and says I'm exploiting our difficulties to win some pat-on-the-back contest in search of other miserable company. DH would tell you unequivocally that he wouldn't do it again. Neither he nor I would make any apologies for that truthful evaluation. It's not made in anger, but honesty. You're truth is different, and I'm glad we both have a place in the world to share those truths. I don't think these expectations are humane or healthy, either physically or mentally.

[spaz]

Did someone pm you or something? I never saw ANYONE say it was passive aggressive or whatever. I am SO incredibly happy for you... How I wish it was that way for us. We didn't get into it for money or a good lifestyle... But to see my husband who literally puts part of himself into each of his patients, so incredibly discouraged... To see the possiblility of his self-worth being taken away by this lawsuit because to him it means failure even though HE DID NOTHING WRONG...

No, it isn't worth it. I would have said it was worth it in med school, residency and the first 10 years of practice. Not now. The hours and stress never, ever end...EVER. Even when you take 4 vacations a year, you aren't on vacation: he is worrying about the cases he left behind or they are calling him or whatever..

Just not worth it. We've told our chidren to stay far, far away from medicine. Find another way to help people...which has always been our only motivation...

[Chrisada]

Well that wasn't my quote and I don't consider the person who did say that to be a passive aggressive, shaming, oppressive person at all. In fact I find her to be the opposite.

But I did imply it could be worse. And you did say that was oppressive and passive aggressive bullshit. That's how we choose to live in regards to his job. That does not make me oppressive to others because I chose a different outlook. But is there truth that misery loves company and that people do come here to bitch about medicine knowing people will agree with them. Absolutely. And that's fine and is a big part of what iMSN is all about. But I will not apologize or feel that I've shamed people, for having a different outlook on my husband's chosen profession.


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[Ladybug]

I guess what I'm getting at is that the dignity of the worker, of the person, is grossly expoited in medicine, and a lot of ther fields in this culture. People slap a dollar sign on it and tell you to be grateful. It's out of whack. We've tried very hard to place healthy boundaries, but it feels like us against an embedded institution.

I know I've blown my top here. I'm sorry for the freak out. Stepping out.

[Chrisada]

Did someone pm you or something? I never saw ANYONE say it was passive aggressive or whatever. ...

Suck-it-up-buttercup-because-it-could-be-worse is not an answer. It's oppressive, and it effetively shuts down all dialogue by shaming the other person for their "ingratitude." It's passive-aggressive BS.

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[PrincessFiona]

Let's play nice. This is not a space to beat up on each other. We are friends here.

[corn poffi]

I guess what I'm getting at is that the dignity of the worker, of the person, is grossly expoited in medicine, and a lot of ther fields in this culture. People slap a dollar sign on it and tell you to be grateful. It's out of whack. We've tried very hard to place healthy boundaries, but it feels like us against an embedded institution.

I know I've blown my top here. I'm sorry for the freak out. Stepping out.

Not to argue, but to point out that that is the beast of health care. It doesn't start and end with physicians. Nurses, staff, and administrators are often treated even worse.

That doesn't make it okay or any more "worth it", but the whole healthcare culture is broken. And that's a different discussion for a different day.

[Deebs]

Chrisada - I must have missed the post you're referring to. I actually think this is a really interesting discussion.

WPW - I want to know what your DH would want to do instead of EM and why. DH and I recently had a long talk about this. While he still really loves EM, what he really likes is the critical care time, to the extent that we've started talking about a critical care fellowship at some point down the road - crazy!

I don't think you can say anything is "worth it" because I do consider this a journey, not a destination. Honestly, we're all married to incredibly intelligent people. If they weren't physicians, they wouldn't be greeters at Walmart, so a lot of comparisons that are made are just nonsense. When my DH was working as a firefighter/paramedic, he was in school full time in undergrad, grad school, and then two years of medical school (though he had to drop to part time). I realize that any job he does, he would work like a dog. Yet, he feels incredibly privileged to have people turn to him in their hours of greatest need, so I think his job is more fulfilling than other careers would be. While his path in becoming a physician was long and twisty, he feels it was his calling, which I think increases his job satisfaction. I think it's sad to read articles, such as the one written by the ED doc post the Joplin tornadoes who was so happy to just do his job without drug seekers and paperwork. I think that's my DH's dream - to just treat patients who really need help without bureaucracy interfering.

Something else to consider: my DH has changed jobs several times to find a good fit. He and I think that was "worth it" even though it came at large personal and financial sacrifice. He is currently spending a couple of shifts a month on the helicopter to prevent burnout. "Changing things up" has really helped him, and us, navigate this journey with greater satisfaction.

[Pollyanna]

Lol, my point has been made beautifully here. There is no way to answer that question. If I give my honest experience and opinion it is misconstrued as passive aggressive (which is humorous because I don't play that game). My experience is my experience, i expect everyone's to be different, that is exactly what I stated. And it is true that around here in threads like these you get a pat on the back for negative and a wagging finger for positive (nice touch btw).

Look, everyone needs to live their life and be happy in it. My very nature is to be positive, I look for ways to make everything a win-win, it's who I am. Others folks could step into my life and say, who is she kidding, she has just as many problems as me. The prism through which I choose to see life is different. But I don't EVER make the claim that it is THE way to live or it is better. It is how I HAVE to live. Others have different paths and that is okay. I am not unrealistic and my prism is not rose colored I am a solution finder so if things are going off the rails damnit I will find a solution. So I will never say it's "not worth it", about anything. Again, not because I'm better, my life it better, or because dh had an easy training road, it's because that is intrinsically who I am. Appreciate that or not, it is what it is.

So it's worth it for us. I know no different. Those that know me know I come from young widows who worked in sweat shops happily. My dad worked until he couldn't, we never ever left for vacation on time or had an uninterrupted holiday. My mom still works at 76 and when she visits us she spends most of her time on the phone. Dh and I don't plan his retirement until 73 but hope for longer. But I think it's awesome that some plan for an early retirement. We just wouldn't want to live that life but I'm thrilled for others that do.

My earlier comments were neither passive aggressive OR shaming. That's not how I roll. There were my honest perspective and experience, take them for what they're worth.

[Ladybug]

Exactly. I wasn't limiting it to MDs. Institutions, work, are suppose to serve the workers and their families health, not chip away at it. When an institution objectifies it's workers (production) things are out of order. Yes, many other people have it much worse than doctors, but that doesn't make either their own situation or our medical system OK. All I can change is my own situation and culture, and that starts with saying that something is out of whack. I realize this a a highly personal situation, but it's certainly not uncommon. The commonality lies within the system: High debt and costs for education followed by high taxes, missing infrastructure, RVU-based salaries.

[ladymoreta]

We're also in the "worth it" camp, although I agree that it hasn't been about a destination, and I'm about 90% sure DH will change careers entirely once we get enough saved to "retire". I can see him being really happy teaching history if he can get more comfortable with public speaking.

I agree that the comparison between medical people and low-wage earners is completely unfair. It's totally apples to oranges. Someone who is stuck in a minimum wage job is at a much lower rung of the hierarchy of needs, where they're more worried about basic needs than self-fulfillment. No one tells the lifetime cashier at Wal-Mart that it will all be worth it because there's not a way up or out for most of them. A doctor in training is working towards self-actualization, and there's a good chance they'll get there. Now, saying that the salary at the end will make it worth it is ridiculous, because while the money helps, I can't think of any doctors I knew who chose this profession just based on future earnings. If they did, they're really, really bad at math.