It will all be worth it...

[Vanquisher]

I have to completely, 100% disagree with the sentiment that those of us who bitch and complain get nothing but pats on the back. That's just not true. I, being very vocal about my distaste for medicine, often get private messages from people who don't feel safe to complain because of the tendency to be kicked when you're down.

Maybe it is just my particular lens and world-view only. I understand that other people struggle, fight, and work hard who are not doctors, but I think all those struggles and plights are often lauded for other workers, whereas for doctors, the money is supposed to be this overarching panacea. Well, I'm sorry, but it's not. Time is the most precious commodity that I have. Time. When I have looked back on my life, I know I will regret the time.

I don't believe in an afterlife. This is it for me, and I want to spend as much time as I can with my family. So, medicine can suck a dick. I won't apologize for my feelings on that. I just won't. I am truly happy for others that feel that it is worth it. I do. But, it does feel awful for those that don't feel that way to have the implication thrown at them that they have poor attitudes, should suck it up, and have little to no right to feel the way they do.

So, fuck you medicine, fuck you in the eye.

[WolfpackWife]

WPW - I want to know what your DH would want to do instead of EM and why. DH and I recently had a long talk about this. While he still really loves EM, what he really likes is the critical care time, to the extent that we've started talking about a critical care fellowship at some point down the road - crazy!

Actually, it's my uncle who said he'd still choose medicine, just not EM (my DH is still in school!). My uncle enthusiastically tries to dissuade my DH from continuing to consider EM, though EM falls further and further down his list of interests, only because cardiology is emerging as his true passion. My DH freaking LOVED working EMS and entered med school with the intention of specializing in EM - nothing my uncle could say pre-med school could change his mind.

My uncle has said if he could do it over he'd choose interventional cardiology. I haven't discussed with him why that would be his choice, but he's discussed it with DH.

My uncle is approaching 60 and retirement. He's put in 3 decades of EM work and while the shift work can be flexible and predictable and there is no call (both obviously perks), the patient population has left him jaded, burnt out, and sick of the drug seekers, opportunists, drug addicts, and verbally abusive people who treat the ER and its staff as a revolving door of immediate care. He's tired of seeing drug related violence, and foolish injuries due to drug and alcohol abuse. He's tired of knowing the names and motivations of drunks that are brought it, or of the handful of patients who come in week after week with a new ailment that requires painkillers. He's said that after a while, it's become less and less been rewarding for him. It just becomes bullshit. It's made him lose faith and respect for humanity as a whole, to some extent. His brother is also in EM and this has been the case in his experience as well. I can see where the EM doc speaking about post-Joplin tornado patients would feel a relief at helping people who were truly in need - not just patients who are trying to exploit his specialty and are verbally assaulting him for denying them what he knows they don't really need. Obviously this is not every single patient interaction that my uncle comes across, but it is a majority of them.

[Pollyanna]

Heidi there is no implication that you or anyone suck it up. That is your interpretation. My comments have never ever claimed that folks should suck it up, or be grateful, or anything of the like. Everyone should be free to express their opinion without others twisting the words. Your feelings are your feelings and you own them, as are mine. Neither are more or less valid. They simply are.

[WolfpackWife]

I want to add an apology for my (now deleted) posts last night. I think that's what kicked off this debate, and I truly hadn't intended it to be that way. I think I wrote my initial post in a place of equating "worth it" with "being happy with our lives" and I know that is not what any of you are saying. I also definitely did NOT mean to come across as though I was trying to remind anyone of how fortunate they are (in fact, I know I never said that anywhere - I am definitely not that person, I think that's a shaming thing to say), I think I read through so many of your responses and interpreted them to be saying that after all of the years of intense strife and sacrifice, it hadn't been worth it and things were not much better.

I read too much into some of the responses and I read into them in the wrong vein. I did not mean to undermine or argue any points, in fact some of the posts made me feel remorseful for some of your experiences because I know they've been hard and I know ours may be just as hard as well - there's no telling now. The reason I ended up deleting them was because I truly did not feel I could contribute anything worthwhile to the discussion and I felt as though my initial post which was honestly asking some of you to specify why it wasn't worth it and what would have made it worth (in a genuinely curious manner) it seemed inane and counterproductive. For that, I apologize. I didn't mean to start any sort of argument nor did I mean any offense.

[MAPPLEBUM]

No one really responded to what i said but to clarify, i do try to live my life in gratitude though when it comes down to it i dont think the lifestyle is worth it. If you were to ask my husband, however, he'd say hes exactly where he needs to be. I would never want to be as stressed and overworked as he is, and i sometimes resent how HIS stress and fatigue affects my life. But for him? Hes finally found his "place." I personally havent experienced the culture of shame and silence in medicine, but more that med spouses are wayyy wayyy different from me. I have been able to have good conversations with some, but as far as spouses IRL I know theyre just totally different people/personality/worldview. So if anything has prevented finding support with them, its that, not a culture of silence.

I do want to comment on something i think HOW said earlier about this population being biased towards people who need support. I suppose i do need support but im also just an online community kind of gal. I'll never shit rainbows because im a cynical bitch but i do think its becoming far more common for people to belong to online communities "just because."

Btw, how do you "like" a post on tapatalk?

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[poky]

Saying "you shouldn't complain because it could be worse" is different than someone recognizing that they know it could be worse for them. It's a subtle difference, but it's there. The first commenter on the linked blog post was saying "You shouldn't complain" - I don't think anybody here is saying "quit complaining because it could be worse" at all.

Mapplebum, you can't "like" on tapatalk; it doesn't tie into that addon; it's a browser-only thing.

[diggitydot]

I'm not entirely sure how shit headed south in this thread. For once, I wasn't in the middle of it.

I typically don't comment in these kinds of threads because our experience has been an outlier and my comments could likely seem insensitive.

It's been worth it to us and we'd do it again in a heartbeat because our experience, while tough at times, wasn't torturous. Yes, there were times when the hours sucked balls or when I needed DH and he couldn't be there, but that's nothing compared to the awful adventures some have had with malignant programs, bullshit contracts, lawsuits, etc.

Being "worth it" for us doesn't diminish how NOT "worth it" it is for anyone else.

[ladymoreta]

Being "worth it" for us doesn't diminish how NOT "worth it" it is for anyone else.

You said it much better than I could! There are several people here who have truly been through hell in their experiences, and I know nothing could make that worth it. Many times, it has nothing to do with attitude and everything to do with horrible luck. I really feel like I ended up being one of the lucky ones.

[peggyfromwastate]

Actually, it's my uncle who said he'd still choose medicine, just not EM (my DH is still in school!). My uncle enthusiastically tries to dissuade my DH from continuing to consider EM, though EM falls further and further down his list of interests, only because cardiology is emerging as his true passion. My DH freaking LOVED working EMS and entered med school with the intention of specializing in EM - nothing my uncle could say pre-med school could change his mind.

My uncle has said if he could do it over he'd choose interventional cardiology. I haven't discussed with him why that would be his choice, but he's discussed it with DH.

My uncle is approaching 60 and retirement. He's put in 3 decades of EM work and while the shift work can be flexible and predictable and there is no call (both obviously perks), the patient population has left him jaded, burnt out, and sick of the drug seekers, opportunists, drug addicts, and verbally abusive people who treat the ER and its staff as a revolving door of immediate care. He's tired of seeing drug related violence, and foolish injuries due to drug and alcohol abuse. He's tired of knowing the names and motivations of drunks that are brought it, or of the handful of patients who come in week after week with a new ailment that requires painkillers. He's said that after a while, it's become less and less been rewarding for him. It just becomes bullshit. It's made him lose faith and respect for humanity as a whole, to some extent. His brother is also in EM and this has been the case in his experience as well. I can see where the EM doc speaking about post-Joplin tornado patients would feel a relief at helping people who were truly in need - not just patients who are trying to exploit his specialty and are verbally assaulting him for denying them what he knows they don't really need. Obviously this is not every single patient interaction that my uncle comes across, but it is a majority of them.

Lol--- your uncle is my dad. Haha.

Medicine has killed my dad. He is bitter over medicine after 8 years or so of running his own clinics. He got out of EM after about 30 years, and opened his own clinics in worker health. Pretty soon the government comes along and starts auditing him and harassing him. He pissed someone off somewhere, and all his patients in worker care are L&I cases. He has become so disillusioned by medicine. He just wants out, but now his clinics are dragging him down. He's 70, and still has to work 80+ hours a week. He's in poor health, IMHO, as is my mom. They don't have much time left I think. And he was absent during my childhood. He didn't know my friends, didn't go to my games, he just was preoccupied. There was always a struggle with the hospital admin. There were lawsuits. There were poor outcomes that ate away at him. He was never free to enjoy himself.

I talked to another doc a year ago. Very very wealthy man, in his mid70s and still working. He could go anywhere he wanted, take any vacation. But he said he is filled with remorse. The cost of pursuing the career to that extreme was too high. Broken families, hurt children, just not worth it.

I think we are talking a balance issue here. But it's not the doctor's fault always that they are working so much. They are expected to live, breathe, and die medicine... And if they complain about non compliant patients, or bogus malpractice cases, or ridiculous charting... They are called ungrateful. After working the equivalent of 2 lifetime work hours in about 25 years, medicine can changed a person.

It's hard for me because my dh had a job before medicine. I saw him as a person who could (and did) leave work at work. He was free to spend time with us. Now, the stress of having so much to do weighs heavily.

Dh had a terrible case about 2 years ago. It wasn't his fault. Nothing was his fault. But that doesn't stop him from reliving it. He does not focus on the times he saved lives... The patients who would have bled out... The poor outcomes become part of his soul, and it's very hard to articulate to a non-doctor what this feels like, and how it hurts.

He has been betrayed by bosses, colleagues, administrators... And he's not even a freakin attending yet.

If he could go back, he says he'd like to be in medicine, but not as a doc.

Some days I just want my husband back. Some days I'm ok with it. Some days I'm so proud of all he's accomplished. Some days I'm so depressed because of all he's missed.

Going through photo files... It's evident to see. He missed 8/12 of the twins birthdays because of medicine. He was not just working, he was on an assignment or a rotation away from us.

Things can always be worse. It's not a fight to see who has it the worst...or the best. The question is personal, so should the answers be. For us, my husband has said many times that it wasn't worth it. This is our life, and we do our best. But he will have this career for his life which is largely a burden, only highlighted with occasional good things.

And he was an optimist. Such an optimist. He was a migrant farm worker growing up. He has worked since age 8, pretty much full time. He has worked as a checker in a store, a firefighter, a forklift operator... He had dreams of helping people. Bringing healthcare to migrants. But his family and their community don't understand it. They all want something from him, envy him, resent me for "stealing him away", and no one has sympathy or compassion or respect for the actual work he does. They do think money makes it all ok. It's been so hard for him. He is torn, but must err on the side of medicine bc the consequences of choosing family over medicine whenever possible would lead to more problems, more regrets, and more stress.

It's not just hard work for him. It's soul-sucking hard work.

[PrincessFiona]

I think that generally speaking, there is less sympathy for someone who says it isn't worth it in medicine. I say that as someone who for years felt it wasn't worth it. I felt trapped, angry, and resentful, and the overwhelming attitude that I came up against was that it wasn't acceptable to complain. It's okay for nurses, teachers ... even dentists and lawyers (well, maybe not lawyers ) to complain about their job and whether or not the sacrifices are worth it. But medicine? Medicine is supposed to be a noble, healing profession....and of course, then there is the elephant in the room ... the money.

Doctors still earn a good living. There is an implicit understanding out there that if you earn 100k, it doesn't matter if you work 80 hours a week. You chose it, by golly. Can't see your kids? Don't have time for your marriage? Tough luck. Cry me a river all the way to the bank. Am I right? Money is supposed to be the factor that makes up for the lost hours of your life with your family.

The game ... is rigged.

There is no profession where I feel that the cost of training and amount of time away from your family is inherently worth earning more bling for. Thing is ... there aren't many professions that require the amount of student loan debt and years of training found in medicine. Maybe there are some, but generally speaking, the medical training process is pretty hard on docs and their families for most people. Some are luckier with less malignant training programs and that's good. Generally speaking, people have it tough during training.

The problem comes after training. If it's more of the same? How can any amount of financial security be worth not having a cohesive and happy family?

Like I said, we're on the other side. Once we got some of our debt paid off and found a more solid financial footing, dh could have more control over his hours. We live much more like a 'real' family now. I wouldn't go back in time and choose the training lifestyle again, but now that we are at this point in our lives, we are happy with where we are. We also accepted that the game is rigged against us and decided to worry less about working and more about family. For those people who are still out there forced to deal with 80 hour work weeks? It just plain stinks. I don't know what the answer is.

That being said, this is the medical spouse network .... so you are free to come here and either be happy with where you or at or express sadness and unhappiness about how things are. There is no judgment either way.

[MAPPLEBUM]

Doctors still earn a good living. There is an implicit understanding out there that if you earn 100k, it doesn't matter if you work 80 hours a week. You chose it, by golly. Can't see your kids? Don't have time for your marriage? Tough luck. Cry me a river all the way to the bank. Am I right? Money is supposed to be the factor that makes up for the lost hours of your life with your family.

The game ... is rigged.

.

can i ask what you mean by the game being rigged? how is it rigged?

maybe its ok for me to say this because ive had no qualms being open when im struggling, but they DID choose this career. and i chose my husband. sure, i had no idea how busy medical busy is, but medicine IS a career choice. i think the viewpoint of other people is there is a huge population of people working 2-3 jobs, never see their kids, etc etc but THEY had less choice. they didnt choose to go into a tough profession, they took whatever they could get in order to survive. and they are making minimum wage, not 6 figures.

i think ladybug was the one who said shes a problem solver and i am too. if i ever got to a point where i said 'this isnt worth it' id be making some big changes in my life. even with all our debt, years, and sacrifices if dh came home and said it wasnt worth it and he wanted to pursue professional rock climbing i would hands down 100% support that decision. i know the longer youre in it the tougher it is to jump ship but as for me and my spouse, we're in this field because he wants it. and i personally am grateful for even his current resident salary. but if the stress ever became too much i would fully support an easier albeit poorer lifestyle.


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[reciprocity]

Just chiming in to add my, uh, current set of lenses I guess?

I, personally, just don't see "is it worth it" to be a super valuable question to ask myself about things. Like people will ask me was law school worth it. Well, I got to ID my roommate at the morgue, got a quarter of a million bucks in debt, got a job/career that doesn't really suit me very well, and I met my wife. So what am I comparing it to? Some hypothetical life where I stayed in Cincy and became manager at the restaurant I worked at in college and met some other dude's wife? Maybe that would be pretty cool, but it would suck if like I stayed in Cincy working in the resto industry and got myself all coked out or something, which is also a very real possibility.

Although I do agree with what seems to be the point of the article, which is that if you are going to weigh the value of your circumstances, you should do it on your own terms and not let others dictate how you weigh those circumstances. It's not unsurprising that people who struggle to find and keep a job, much less a well-paying one, might envy certain aspects of any high-paying career, particularly in a culture that seems to ascribe a great deal of self-worth to income and (more importantly it seems) consumption. I feel like it's a bit rude for me to complain about the demands of my job in any but the most intimate settings. That does result in me feeling ostracized somewhat at times.

But I agree that the beauty of this community is that it is exactly the intimate setting where people feel comfortable sharing those sorts of feelings about medicine. I personally am very grateful for those who have feelings on both (all) sides of the issue, because it's certainly helped me feel a bit more prepared, and hopefully will result in me being less gobsmacked by reality over the next couple of years. If not, you're all free to quote this post to me when I start trying to figure out if it's all been worth it.

[PrincessFiona]

What I mean:

Study and work hard to get into med school. Take out an average of 150,000 in debt that must be repaid.

Start residency. Work 80+ hours/week for a small wage. Miss family events and live to work. Tell yourself it will be worth it someday in your darkest moments.

Get a real job. Earn real money. Pay real taxes. Start paying off debt. Work hard but have reimbursements fall every year. See more patients but earn less. Be under constant pressure by the administration to see more patients. Have your income tied to your patient's compliance.

I could go on, but I won't.

Despite this we are happy now. We don't tie our happiness to the job though.

[WolfpackWife]

Have your income tied to your patient's compliance.

Jesus.

[Thirteen]

It's called Press Ganey scores here (what Kris said), and it's both a blessing and a curse.


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