Anybody married to a surgeon/surgery resident?

Hi All,

I'm a married medical student considering a surgical field (orthopaedics). My only hesitation is the possible impact on the quality of my family life. My wife and I plan to have several children by the end of residency.

Are any of you married to a surgical resident or surgeon? What have your experiences been like? Whether you're a couple that has coped well, or a couple that has found it extremely difficult, I appreciate your honest feedback (strategies, advice, etc.).

If I had to choose between the two, I'd rather be happily married raising well-adjusted children than be a surgeon -- but if there is a possibility I can have my and cake and eat it too, I'd like to hear how it's done.

Thanks!

[SuzySunshine]

I'll put in my two cents. My DH is a resident in one of the most un-family friendly surgical specialties, neurosurgery. We don't have children yet but we expect a harder than usual family life, with that said I wouldn't have wanted my husband to choose an easier specialty for me or our children. I beleive our family life would be ten times harder if he would have chosen a specialty that he hated or didn't like as much as the one he loves.

At the same time I beleive it can be done and be done happily. At his program most of the attendings have children, the chair of the department has six under the age of 14 and he and his family seem very happy. I think communication and flexibility are key. When you're not at the hospital spend time with your family, when you're at work work so that you can get home earlier.

My other two cents which I know a lot of people on this board may not agree with is to wait as long as possible for children. My husband doesn't want our kids to remember when he was never home so we plan to have our kids with 2-3 years left so that they won't. A spouse gets into a relationship knowing it will be hard, kids aren't always so lucky.

Good luck in your choice, go with your heart.

Thanks for your perspective and optimism, Cheri.

Hopefully, being happy at work will translate to being happy at home.

Still, my wife is so supportive of my career interests that I feel it's important for me to anticipate her needs and challenges.

For example, we've always shared equally in marital duties (cooking, cleaning, shopping, dog care, etc.) but I hope we'll manage the shock if I can't pull my equal weight in that arena due to the surgery residency work week.

Moreover, I can see myself being less "present" mentally when overworked and tired (i.e., poor conversationist).

From your experiences, how can a surgery resident continue to make his/her medical spouse feel important and appreciated?

Thanks!

[Flynn]

To start with a joke, as my DH looks over my shoulder and reads your post with me, he says you are WAY too sensitive (considerate? ) for a surgeon. We are both laughing as I write this but there is a grain (only a grain?) of truth here for sure. I think he's just envious.

My DH wants to add that the lifestyle of your residency largely will depend on the volume of the trauma center you will work at. That alone sucks up a lot of ortho residents' time at his program.

Ok, my two cents.... (please PM me if you would like to chat about this more) I have been with my DH since med school, married on the first day of his R2 year -- just some background.

I am going to try and make this brief and with as little venom as possible.

You want a happy family AND you want to be a surgeon? I agree it CAN be done, but not without severe sacrifices and since we are still training I cannot say yet it will all be worth it in the end.

With that being said, I believe I have a strong marriage and we are in a good place. Testing a marriage with less than ideal circumstances is not necessarily a bad thing but how much do you want to test it? How independant is your spouse? Will you possibly have family near her when you do decide to have children? How are you when you are sleep deprived? These factors can make or break a couple.

My first and probably most honest response is that if there is a field of medicine besides surgery you can be happy practicing -- DO THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

If that is not the case, like with my DH and many others, read on...

The worst part for me was that my DH was so abused and overworked, he wasn't the man I married for YEARS. I don't think I realized this until his hours were more reasonable (ONLY 80 hours) towards the end of his general surgery residency.

For the bulk of his residency he was NEVER around. You mentioned doing your share at home? At times it will be a "good day" if you are home by ten at night and have two days off a month.

I cleaned the house, did the bills, walked the dogs, grocery shopped...etc. etc etc... He missed weddings, birthdays and funerals every year. That gets old. When he did have time off he was at first posessive of the time and not used to just "hanging out." We were operating on me doing 99% of everything that needed to be done. It's an unhealthy lifestyle to say the least.

Fast forward to after we had our first child and the *&^% hit the wall. Residency without kids is hard. Residency with kids is a whole other world. Our daughter is only two and a half (we only have a little over a year left -- General surgery was 5 years, two years in the lab and now we are finishing up the first year of a two year CT fellowship) and I have already heard her say to me, family or friends:

"That's the day that Daddy was home!"
"I like it when Daddy has dinner with us."
"Is this a party? Daddy is usually at work."
"Daddy do you live at the hospital?"
"Will Daddy be here?"
"My Daddy would be here but he's at work instead."
"Daddy will you read me a story tomorrow too? PLEASE!!"

Being married without your spouse around due to long work hours is tough. Being a single parents is awful -- and your spouse WILL be a single parent for long periods of time. Even if your spouse is the most understanding person in the world, it's hard not to get resentful. Keep in mind that I am a devoted mom who adores her kids, loves being a mom and feels LUCKY to stay at home with them...but it's lousy when your doc hubby misses everything and you do double duty at home.

Finally, "being happy at work translates to being happy at home." This is a misconception. You will have moments of "being happy" at work but lets be clear here -- work will suck the life out of you, and you won't have much to give your family when you are home. Also, surgery residents get abused in the best of programs. You are, in a sense, cheap labor. That's hard to deal with day in and day out for smart, ambitious people.

So can this work? Of course but what's it worth to you? There will be a HUGE cost to going into surgery. It's different with every couple but don't kid yourself, there is a COST. If you don't have a fire in your belly for surgery, go into something else.

This is a huge decision for you, your spouse, your future children, and your family and friends who love you. It's not just about the doc which you are aware of since you wrote such a considerate post to this website.

I am proud of how we have grown as a family while dealing with such a challenging lifestyle. There are some positives for sure. I do wonder however, if it will be worth it -- and so does my DH by the way. We had NO IDEA how hard this lifestyle would be. NONE.

Well that's my two cents. PM me if you have more questions.

[Vanquisher]

My husband is a first year Ortho intern, and you caught me on a good day, so today I might tell you that it can be done. There have been days though that I would have told you that if you wanted to keep your family, choose a different specialty.

My husband and I met in high school. We were best friends in high school and had a great time together. We both had lofty goals and ambitions. We started dating just after high school and we got married after our first year of college. During our engagement, I found out that my fertility was in question. My husband and I always wanted children, but had wanted to wait in order for us both to fulfill our dreams of going to medical school. We decided that it would be too risky to wait, my insides were a mess, and we would regret not having a family for our careers.

It took us almost a year to get pregnant with our first child. My pregnancy was a disaster. The first day of summer semester I had a significant bleed. The baby was fine, but I was put on bedrest. That was the first time I had to drop a semester of classes. I had hyperemesis gravidarum during my pregnancy as well and threw up more times in a day than you could count. I had to go to the emergency room several times a month for IV fluids because I was so dehydrated. I still managed to go to fall semester. I had the baby in January, so winter semester was out. I happened to have the easiest baby to take care of on the planet, but I will still tell you that this was very, very hard. I went to school full-time. Dh went to school full-time. Dh worked full-time to support us. We traded off the baby during classes, did our homework and studied with him on our laps, and I watched him while dh worked. The summer after I had my son, I got severely depressed. I was hospitalized. I made it through though. Dh and I both graduated. Neither of us had great GPA's. It was really, really hard.

DH made it in to medical school by the skin of his teeth. He got in off of the waiting list and had already started graduate scfhool somewhere else, thinking he wasn't going to get into medical school that year, and that he would try again. The day he found out he was in Philadelphia. I was in Utah. He flew back to Utah, we packed our U-haul and Drove to Albany, New York, the next day. He started med school classes as soon as we arrived.

Medical school was a piece of cake!! Dh didn't have a job. We lived on loans. I took care of our son and our townhouse. Dh studied at home and was home a lot. It was nice. His fourth year of medical school, we decided to have another child, and I had an even more difficult pregnancy with her. I had a PICC line placed in my arm so that I could receive fluids, vitamins, and IV Zofran for seven months of my pregancy. I was induced at 36 weeks. The baby was fine, heathy and strong. It was a tough pregnancy, and even with dh gone for a month doing an away rotation, life was okay. The pregnancy was hard, but life was okay.

Dh decided to do Orthopedics. There are definitely times I resent this. There are definitely times I feel he chose his job over his family. He is gone most of the time. The 80 hour work week thing, while followed most of the time here, is still too much to work. He got into one of the most family-friendly programs in the country. If there was a wedding or funeral, dh could generally make it. However, he misses plenty of stuff. My son gets sad about it, and has cried. He wishes his dad could see his basketball games, could be there for dinner with us, could tuck him into bed at night. My daughter misses seeing him too.

We have a very strong marriage, very strong, but there have been times that I have resented him, and times during this year I have considered leaving. It wasn't this bad during college when we both went to school and eh had a full-time job and I had clinical depression. It is that hard now. It is harder than I can describe to you. I'm sticking it out, but I will tell you that even when he is home, he has nothing else to give to me or the kids. I am a single parent. Dh is willing to rematch in something different, like radiology, if I ask him to. I can't ask him to. I feel like he will resent me if he can't do what he wants to do. We have had to leave our extended families behind, and I have been very much on my own since the first day of medical school. In medical school though, I could count on him for support. Here, I can't. I can't count on him for anything. I can't count on him to have a regular schedule, to be there for me, to help me, anything. I have to hold the burden of all other responsibilities.

And, let me also say that my dh is working very hard at our marriage and family life too. He does all that he possibly can to help. We go on dates twice a month, and we schedule them for post-call days. So, even if he has been up for 36 hours, we go. He makes it important to him. Sleep is far less important. As soon as he is home he is 100% focused on family when he can be. There are times he falls asleep when I am talking to him. He sleeps in the recliner a lot holding our daughter. Everything that he does is still sometimes just not enough. There are days that are so hard that it just seems very unworth it. I have found myself yelling at him, and ready to pack up the kids and go.

Also, very few people will understand how hard it is on your wife. Everyone will consider you to have the greater burden, and it is difficult to get people to understand, hey, it really is harder for her. I will deck anyone who says otherwise. Your wife will need to give up a lot, she will need to be strong, independent, and understanding. She needs to be willing to move away from her support system. She needs to be willing to be the last priority for you, her kids, and herself. I only speak from the perspective of having children through this process though. Maybe it is easier if you don't have children during residency. I'm sure it must be.

I have to tell you that we take every opportunity we can get. I take the kids and we eat dinner with dh in the call room or hospital cafeteria some nights. Most of the time though, it's not enough. He will never get back this time he has missed with the kids or me.

If you would be happy doing a different specialty, do it, otherwise be prepared for the cost, which unless you have one of those very special women, may be your marriage. It can be done. I'm doing it, after all, but it sucks. It sucks big time.

Consider dermatology, psychiatry, radiology, anesthesiology....

[migirl]

"Daddy do you live at the hospital?"

OMG, that is just so ... sad.


I agree, if it's surgery you're interested in, there are definitely more family-friendly fields that you could look into. If it's ortho that you have your heart set on, though, well . . . I think you've gotten a taste of what's to come from Heidi's post; she pretty much says it all!

My DH is a urology resident, and he chose the field partly because of its family-friendliness. He takes call 4-6 times per month (home call, which is awesome! ), works only 1-2 weekends per month, and - depending on the service he's rotating on - is generally home by 6-7pm. We've been lucky to have a semi-normal life, even considering the fact that he's doing a surgical residency. My point is that there are surgical fields that aren't brutally painful for both resident and family. Explore your options and keep an open mind. Good luck, and good for you for thinking about the impact of your career choice on your wife!

[Flynn]

Oh Heidi-- geez girl, I feel your pain. I think this life is HARD and I haven't had to deal with half of what you have with your tough pregnancies and depression. I really hope this all works out for you in the long run, you deserve it!!!

It's funny because when I read through a few of the "Match Day" posts where the spouses have shared where they are going and what they matched in, when I read that someone is "thrilled" they matched in General surgery, neurosurgery, or otho, and "they got their first choice," there's a little voice in my head that basically says, "You guys are excited? Well that will end VERY VERY SOON. You have just supported a decision that may well be the end of your marriage." It almost was for ours. I think the "good" surgery marriages are in survival mode for so long, I wonder if it will be hard when DH does have more time? The facts are, the divorce rate is very high for people with regular jobs in our country. I don't have the stat on hand right now but I know that surgeons have a particularly high divorce rate for a reason.

I'm not bitter as I type this and I don't consider myself overly jaded about this profession. I consider myself very realistic and some people don't take kindly to brutal honesty.

I think being honest about what you are dealing with in this lifestyle without getting "too negetive" is helpful.

Anyway Heidi, I respect your honesty and whole heartedly endorse your post. There is a COST to this life and hopefully you have helped someone really look at the reality of what they are considering.

With support,

[Vishenka69]

I pretty much agree with everything said here so far. If at all possible, either have kids after residency or choose another field. My uncle has recently finished a general surgery residency and his oldest son often said things like Flynn's daughter. He was one of the reasons we decided to wait until after DH's residency, even though he's in Anesthesia.

DH did consider surgery at one point in med school (even did research with ortho attending) but I just couldn't deal with surgical rotations. I didn't want to be as misrable as my aunt was during her husband's residency. I'm glad that my DH decided that quality of life and family were more important and chose a friendlier specialty.

Anything is doable (including have children while in surgical residency) but why would you want to put so much extra strain on yourself, your spouse and your relationship.

[DCJenn]

I think that you will hear from many, many people that having kids during medical school is hard, having kids during residency is hard. Having kids during a surgery ANYTHING is brutal. I guess the question for you is: Do you want to know you kids and have them remember you in any part of their early childhood?

Seeing what these spouses have to deal with- makes me thank my lucky stars that my husband picked something (anything!) else.

This is something that your spouse needs to understand is going to be all her. Even 'family-friendly' residencies require significant sacrifices from the spouse to work; the brutal existence of the surgical lifestyle will require that your wife understand what it is to operate in survival mode for a significantly long period of time.

Feel free to look at some of the other posts here- we've covered the issues unique to people who devote decades to training and the impact that it has on families.

Jenn

[Vanquisher]

Thank you Flynn!

We are getting through one day at a time. I've told dh, under no uncertain terms, that when this residency is over, if he chooses to do a fellowship, it better be in the most hour-friendly subspecialty possible. Also, I mentioned that I would rather make $200K and have him work 40 hours a week than $500K working 60 or more. I'm putting in my time, that's for sure, and hopefully it will work out for the best.

I believe in my husband and my marriage.

I believe that after residency is all done I may find myself lobbying for better working conditions for residents. Maybe that will be my new goal...

I ought to look up those surgeon divorce statistics. It might make me feel better to know that even though it is really rough, I am surviving.

I too hope this thread helps someone look into the reality of what they are considering, and not trying to paint a hopeful picture of a dream that can't come true. The truth is that life gets in the way, and things aren't always so rosy. The whole background of my post was to point out that my dh and I have been together for a long time, we have a strong foundation, we have been through hard times, and residency trumps all of that.

Flynn, I applaud all you have done too, to be where you are, it must feel good to know you are in the final fellowship crunch. At least I hope this is the last of the "training" process for you. I don't recall. Anyway, good luck, and I am there with you!

[houseelf]

All I have to say is listen, listen, listen. I won't repeat my story here because I have hemoraged (sp?) it all over this website.

Long story short: You need to dig deep to ensure that you absolutely love surgery and your wife above everything else because this is all that your life is going to contain, if you are very, very lucky. If there is any chance that you doubt either of these premises, do not go this route. It is a damn hard way to go.

Kelly

[Sheherezade]

Ditto all that has been said. The spouse of a surgical resident or fellow must be flexible and independent. It is a difficult and underappreciated position. You are asked to do amazing things and considered a whiner if you complain (by the culture--and sometimes your spouse!). The two of you can make your life better by choosing VERY CAREFULLY at every choice point--specialty, residency program, lab, etc. When things are this difficult, every little bit helps. I assume thing would have been easier without kids, because then I was a workaholic too . I always had them, so I don't really know. Clearly children are a much bigger responsibliity than loading the dishwasher, or even paying the bills . Even with the best of circumstances, problems are inevitable. Proceed with caution.

Wow........how do I even begin to respond to those questions????? Hmmmm??? Just from the tone of your post, you do not sound like most of the surgeons/residents that I know. It sounds like you have a LOT of free time on your hands, too. You sound very warm and considerate and family focussed. Well, I guess my husband was all of those things too, before (and after quitting) his surgical residency. We were married a few days after he took STEP II of his boards, at the end of his second year of med school. We had definite plans for a family. We also were both older than most of his med school peers as he had taken off 7 years between college and med school to manage a family business. He was very interested in surgery, but had a lot of interests in med school and had difficulty making the final commitment to a specialty. When we matched in general surgery at SUNY Buffalo, we were thrilled that he was beginning his new career and we were getting on with life. We were very well warned by several of his friends who were already attending physicians that the sacrifices would be high, the workload endless, and the level of respectful treatment by senior staff----zilch.

So-----pretty much from the get-go--------surgery was grueling....sometimes exceedingly so. His hours averaged about 100 per week-----------literally. Sometimes they went as far down as 80 (rarely) and as high as 120 when he was pulling q2 shifts. He was mostly on-call q3, periodically on q2, sometimes q4, and I can't remember anything less often than that. And he rarely had a more than 30 minutes to sleep while on-call so basically he could count on being up all night for every call day. The latest he ever got up on a work day was 6:00am. The earliest he ever got up from home was 4:00am, probably when he was doing his neurosurgery rotation (which I remember had no call, so that was not so bad). On non-call days, he would come home anytime between 7-11pm, reliably, LOL!!!!!

My basic experience of him being home during residency was in one of two conditions-------starving or utterly exhausted. The burning question of my day was would he need to eat before going to sleep or not. He also was emotionally drained daily from the horrendous things he had to do and deal with constantly, it often seemed like he was running to tragedy after tragedy after tragedy and sometimes, it was just too, too much....and he couldn't always fix everything when he wanted to---so dealing with dying patients all the time was EXTREMELY difficult and never got easier for him with time. He would usually come home, eat something quick and hit the hay.....not to be seen or heard from until he kissed my cheek on the way out, before sunrise the next day. Of course, those were on the easy days when he wasn't on call. There was no question of him "pulling his weight" aorund the home. He couldn't. I accepted that early on as part of the deal. I took care of EVERYTHING.......ALL of the time, every day, expecting NOTHING from him because that was just our reality at the time. I made lots of friends quickly and set up my own strong support system, which helped a great deal.

Did I mention that we were newly pregnant for the second time (after losing our first pregnancy a few months before) when we moved to Buffalo??? We went on to have 3 babies during our 3+ years of general surgery residency. It's a miracle we had time to conceive them all!!! We did get a few vacations, so I guess that helped. Our first was a 33 week preemie and spent 30 days in the NICU due both to prematurity and severe multiple UTIs/kidney damage from vesicouretal reflux. Our second baby (and 3rd, also had vesicouretal reflux, but not as severe---yes, it's a genetic thing) required my bedrest starting at 32 weeks gestation and her birth was uneventful. Our third baby which we had during my husband's 4th year of surgery required 10 weeks of bedrest. My husband took a family medical leave of absence to care for me and our 2 toddlers. That was the first time (other than vacations) he was given the opportunity to be home while both he and his children were awake and alert. Usually, he would leave in the morning before they had awoken and he would come home after they were already in bed. He loved playing with them and seeing them grow and change, having them fall asleep on his shoulder, etc. He realized how much he missed out by not raising his own children on a daily basis. Our 3rd child finally arrived.........and had a number of challenges to overcome. It took a while for him to get an accurate diagnosis.....but basically he had no nasal passage on one side and a partial one on the other side. He was able to get along breathing with his mouth for a few weeks and had lots of trouble nursing. At about 5 weeks old, he was finally diagnosed with the VERY RARE congenital anterior nasal pyriform aperture stenosis. He spent over 2 weeks in the ICU and had two miraculous surgeries to create nasal passages for him. It was during this time that my husband
decided NEVER to return to the surgery program and he turned in his resignation. He was given credit for completing 3 years.

We have not regretted the decision to leave surgery for a second!!!!!!! It was extremely hard finding a training program post match that year........and things have been rough on and off since then. But we found the surgical program and lifestyle to be incompatible with the family oriented future we have very consciously chosen for ourselves. It has truly been an uphill battle. Now, we are planning to begin a radiology residency in Detroit in 2006, so things are looking up for a change.


I know that my experience is unique---------but hey, you did ask for opinions of what it's like....and well......even after these 4 years away from the surgical world.......I still have a slightly bitter taste in my mouth. I know that some people are just cut out for it from the get go----and goodness knows, we do need to have great surgeons out there........but it really wasn't for him...or us, after all. Even with all the warnings, we never could have imagined how difficult our time there was going to be. Of course, having sick kids, really made it much, much tougher.

Nobody here can tell you whether you will be able to get through a surgical residency with an intact marriage. A lot of couples don't make it. What I can assure you is that your marriage will be vastly different by the time you leave the program. You will learn a great deal about both your and your spouses strengths and weaknesses through the process. I think it works best when the spouse is very independent and self-sufficient and good with dealing with stress and tolerating you not being available most of the time---physically or emotionally......and knows how to create support systems anywhere. I do personally know a number of happily married surgeons with happy kids. I know some people who put off making a family during this extremely stressful training period, too. I know of a few people whose marriages failed during and following surgical training. You could say that about every profession though. I think there are many variables that effect the strength of any given marital relationship. I wish you and your wife much luck, strength, patience and giggly fun times.

When my DH was interviewing for general surgery residencies he was told by an attending that the divorce rate for surgeons is 80%.

Well this is my 4th attempt to respond to this post. I keep getting frustrated and walking away. I guess this is a direct reflection of how I feel at this point in our journey. I will try to keep it brief.
If there is any other specialty you would personally be happy doing, do that instead.
If surgery is the way to go, make sure your wife knows what she is getting herself into before she blindly agrees to be supportive no matter what. GET HER ON THIS SITE AND LET HER READ THE POSTS FOR HERSELF. Don't tell her what it will be like because YOU don't know. Let her hear it from those experiencing it so that she can see for herself. Of course, everyone's situation is different. But honestly, there are certainly consistent themes, struggles, heartaches that the majority of surgery spouses go through.
If you do ortho, will you do research? Add another year. Will you consider a fellowship? Add at least another year and don't count on doing it in the same place.
Poor conversationalist? NO, you will be a useless zombie.
Household chores? TRY is all I can say. It's making the effort that counts.
Poverty - count on that for you and your family for a long time.


Honestly, I thought nothing could break the INCREDIBLE bond between me and my DH. I KNOW I will never love anyone else like I love him. Even strangers have commented on what an amazing bond we have for one another and friends have vehemently expressed their envy of our connection. I am not trying to brag, but I am confident in saying that there are few in the world who have (had) it as good as us.
Bring it on!!!!!!! was my opinion going into this.
Yet, the career choice to become a pediatric surgeon has divorce (or breakdown) knocking on the door. [b] 9 years of training, moving every 2 years for the next 8 years/]b] and the stress of it all has literally brought me to my knees. And we are only in the 2nd year of training.
This is extremely hard for me to admit. I am no wimp, I have lived all over the world and am an educated, brilliant adapter....under most circumstances.
This site tells it like it is. I suggest YOU stop reading these posts, hand the computer over to anyone you care about having a future with and let them decide for themselves. Only then should you sit down with them and make this decision.
In my experience, most surgeons are delusional (a whole nother thread!) and simply don't quite get it.
Good luck to you and your family. Please keep us updated.