breast feeding, test taking medical mom

[PrincessFiona]

Re:

I would have thought feminism would have meant more then allowing women to work in a mans world, I would have thought it would have meant changing the way the world works. Alas I was wrong.

I agree.

DH agrees with everyone else on this thread ... but he read through the tone of the responses and said "THIS is why women will never rule the world".

crap...I'm not supposed to be reading this or responding. Kelly is going to come and spank me.

Kris

[pstone]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

but he read through the tone of the responses and said "THIS is why women will never rule the world".

Women becoming and acting like men always have in the work place hardly seems revolutionary, your husband is right.

[spotty_dog]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Just a thought: is it possible that the majority's view is, in any way, shaped by the subject-mom's profession as a physician? That is, does anyone think they were less tolerant of her request for special treatment because she was a physician?

Kind of, yeah. I have this book on my shelf called Hirkani's Daughters. It's all about the hurdles that women have overcome in order to breastfeed their children fully while working outside of the home. The stories come from every continent, and every set of circumstances: manual laborers in Sumatra, office workers ib Brazil. Women have overcome so much to make nursing their child a priority. This is a privileged Harvard grad looking for special accommodations on ONE (OK, two) days in order to pursue a lucrative and life-consuming career. Choose your battles, you know? I think Heidi said it well. There are so many issues a physician mother faces, I think she's blowing her wad (pardon my language) way too soon by taking up THIS cause.

On the other hand I'm grateful every time nursing women's issues make the news. Because the conversations that result help me immensely as a breastfeeding mother. I hate nursing in public, and I hate that I hate it -- but nurse-ins that affirm a mother's right to feed her child anywhere give me strength to do what's best for my son. Sometimes I think of taking the GRE Subject test so I can apply to grad school, but the thought of being away from the baby for up to 5 hours is daunting. I get mastitis every time I get engorged and I definitely get engorged after 5 hours without nursing; I have a horrible time letting down for anything but the baby. It's reassuring to see that someone finds it important to ensure that at least the pumping part of the equation can be made a little less stressful in such a high-stress situation as a big test.

:huh:

[Rapunzel]

Re:

There are way too many unrelated issues really to address here anymore. I don't know if I agree with her wanting those extra 60 minutes to pump tacked onto her test..and I'm not sure whether it is right or not...but to have a group of women sit here and accuse her of trying to sue for money to pay off her student loans

Come on you guys.

Sometimes, I think compassion has completely flown out the iMSN window.

I do think that the tone of the responses here is way out of proportion to what is actually the topic...and it is all because she wants the extra time to breastfeed. For some reason, that has elicited a very negative, angry response from many of you...that has, quite frankly, surprised me.

I have never asked for special accommodations because I'm a woman, but I don't begrudge someone else if they need to.

There is a lot of anger in this thread. A lot...and I wonder really where it comes from. But...I won't ask, because I'm not interested in the angry response.

I've been thinking the same thing.

The word that keeps coming to mind is: Venom

Seriously, there seems to be quite a bit of anger here that is surprising me.

[Vanquisher]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

I am really not seeing that much more malice or venom in the replies to this post then in a lot of the other heavily debated topics.

:huh:

Anything that I said was never meant to be malicious or in anyway hurtful toward anyone here. Whereas, I have seen a number of debates that have turned rather mean toward specific people here, and this isn't one of those.

Sometimes, we all have "hot-button" issues :guilty: that we perceive as being completely against us. Not that I've ever been the only one on that side of an argument before.

Let's breathe everyone, and try to remember that, it's nothing personal, and true feelings are veiled be the jumble of words on the screen that leave our tired, frazzled, grumpy fingers. :badday:

[Rapunzel]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

OK, having read through the thread completely now....

Breastfeeding is important - for the baby. Breastfeeding, when done erratically, can and certainly does cause health problems.

Those are two facts.

The woman is asking for extra breaks to breastfeed. She's not asking for extra time to go study some more. She's not asking for yet ANOTHER day extra in taking the test (which I have a larger problem with than the breastfeeding issue - byfar). In fact, breastfeeding could put her at a distinct disadvantage because her breaks and need to focus on her baby for a few minutes could seriously break her concentration among other things.

Why are we seeing breastfeeding as a privilege? It's not. It's a fact of life. And, it's not all about the mother. There is a child involved here as well. And, this woman is attempting to do what all working mothers do: balance the very real needs of her child with the expectations of her colleagues. Breastfeeding is not a privilege anymore than parenthood is a privilege. It is a part of life and a necessary one at that. Women have struggled for many years to have the American culture recognize that breastfeeding is not "odd" and that breastfeeding is not a privilege. It is a right. Specifically it is a right for the baby in question - not the mother.

I've said it before (in the other thread previously mentioned) and, I'll say it again: The most venomous, bitter, ruthless person DH encountered during his residency (which was an H-bomb residency btw ) was....a woman. You want to meet someone anti-child, anti-parenting, anti-woman? That was the person for you! And, it was another female.

So, where is the concern for the child in question in all of this? There IS a child, you know. And, that child is at the root of this discourse. Where is the concern for the woman's health? That IS the point the woman is making. And, it is a very real one.

I don't see many of these comments as anti-woman as much as I see them as anti-mothering/parenthood and that DOES definitely flow from the conversation in the Call Room. We cannot expect fatherhood to be respected if we cannot respect motherhood.

[Rapunzel]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

I am really not seeing that much more malice or venom in the replies to this post then in a lot of the other heavily debated topics.

:huh:

Anything that I said was never meant to be malicious or in anyway hurtful toward anyone here. Whereas, I have seen a number of debates that have turned rather mean toward specific people here, and this isn't one of those.

Sometimes, we all have "hot-button" issues :guilty: that we perceive as being completely against us. Not that I've ever been the only one on that side of an argument before.

Let's breathe everyone, and try to remember that, it's nothing personal, and true feelings are veiled be the jumble of words on the screen that leave our tired, frazzled, grumpy fingers. :badday:

I think the surprise for me over the very strong negative reactions stems from the recent thread in the Call Room on a subject that very much has to do with this one - ie Parenthood and Medicine. We want our husbands to be recognized as fathers in medicine. We want them to have paternity leave just as the women have paternity leave. But, it's a two-way street. We also have to respect that women want to be recognized as mothers in medicine - and that involves those troublesome boobs and their primary purpose and function in biology.

In our American culture breasts are seen as sexual objects - not necessities for life for a baby. It is still seen as a "privilege" to nurse a baby and others are making "special accomodations" for the breastfeeding mother AND her baby rather than seeing it as just another part of...life.

I wouldn't begrudge a new mother in dh's program her breastfeeding her baby. If she was doing her work then why would I?

I definitely do see the serious issues that go along with someone having disabilities preventing them from keeping up with their work. And, for that reason the extra day tacked on seriously bothers me. However, I don't see breastfeeding as a disability nor a privilege.

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

To answer Abigail's question, no, I don't think I was harder on this woman than I would be someone who is not in the medical profession. I abhor those who believe they are due an exception for every little thing and try to work the system.

As far as TR comment that we're perceiving breastfeeding as a priviledge -- I actually see it the other way around. I think taking this test is a priviledge. A requirement in the path she's on for sure, but the accessibility to that path is a priviledge.

As for the "what about the child?" angle ... either the woman can pump enough milk ahead of time, or the kid can have formula, which is fine. Perfect? No. Best? No. Will it harm the child to have 2 bottles / day of forumula? Absolutely not. It's her mother who chose this path.

Yes, we want equal treatment of our husbands with regards to parenthood, but that will only stay farther and farther out of the realm of possibility as long as women continue to try to gain exemptions (and largely receive them b/c the system is afraid of litigious-happy whiners).

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

It is funny (not ha-ha funny, but funny as in "notable"): every so often in a thread, folks will start commenting on the heightened hostility being expressed. Apparently, an argument (discourse regarding an issue) will slip into a perceived "fight" (that is, the heat level on the discussion has gone up to an uncomfortable level) :fight: I think my thermometer for measuring that heat level is in Kelvin degrees or is otherwise completely nonstandard. I mean, I can definitely pick up on when there's a "one man against the mob" situation, but I am pretty clueless at recognizing what gets perceived as "hostility." When someone comments on it, I'm usually thinking, "Really?"

I am sure that you guys who note hostility are correct. I'm not challenging that. I just think that, maybe because of my line of work, my baseline for "hostile" is a lot different. Very little of anything I've seen on this site ever even registers on my hostility radar. I guess I just assume everyone is cool with the fact that people disagree and it's not personal. I mean, it's just almost impossible to hurt my feelings by substantively rejecting my argument, so I guess I assume everyone else is that way, too--especially if they are treading into the Debates Forum.
But, you know, maybe this assumption is not always a good one. If people are very personally invested in their position, they could perceive rejection of that position (especially if overwhelming) as hostility.

I am not sure. Giving people credit for genuinely believing in their position and being personally invested in it--as versus being a mercenary for hire to advocate for a client's position--is a pretty hard thing for an attorney to imagine.

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

[Sorry...I botched my post and did it twice!]

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Okay just for fun I'd like a show of hands who would like this woman in their husband's or wife's program? My answer to that would be HELL NO!!

No way. Not because she's a mom. Not because she's got ADHD. Not because she has (apparently) poor test-taking skills, even when accommodated for the ADHD.

No (and I know this will sound completely awful and unsympathetic) because she does not impress me as the type of person who can make the personal sacrifices that you MUST make to be in a NSG program. You surrender your life--and in many ways--the lives of your family, to the will and whim of the hospital. If you have to stop and pump (hell, if you have to stop and EAT), you're just dead weight and somebody else (like my DH!) will have to pick up your slack.

It's not fair. It doesn't reflect a woman/mother-friendly attitude. But it is reality. If you want to be a NSG and you are a woman, great. If you want my DH to suffer (and his family to suffer) because he has to work around your personal lifestyle choice, screw you. If you can't keep up with all the demands of the program AND have kids, then go kids on your own time because now you're butting into mine. That's how I feel, anyway.

[Rapunzel]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Yes, the mother did choose this path.

But, we have a conflict here: Is she a mother first? Or is she a doctor first?

If she is a mother first then the breastfeeding of her child (and, subsequently, as the child grows, the illnesses of said child, the various school functions of said child, etc.) should be considered a normal part of her life and her work schedule to flow around those things (assuming the workload is the same as her colleagues).

If she is a doctor first then I think Princess Fiona's husband (and, some of the other husbands here) that perhaps a woman (particularly a woman who wants children) should not be in medicine at all. And, really, that extends to any profession.

When I follow out some of the logic that I'm seeing in this thread I see that some of it does support the latter conclusion (that the profession comes before parenthood and, therefore, in order to be a good mother perhaps women shouldn't be in the profession - and I see that it could very well extend to include ANYONE who wants to be a parent).

As far as the woman in question not being able to pump for the greater part of a day: Yes, that can most certainly lead to mastitis. It would perhaps be easier for all of us as outsiders here if this woman indicated that she had problems with clogged ducts and the more serious mastitis. However, even without her specifically saying she has had this issue in the past - it is still quite a viable concern - particularly if she is like me and produces an over-abundance of milk in the first few months postpartum (I literally have to pump off the extra milk because it's too much for one baby - mooooooo).

[Rapunzel]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Okay just for fun I'd like a show of hands who would like this woman in their husband's or wife's program? My answer to that would be HELL NO!!

No way. Not because she's a mom. Not because she's got ADHD. Not because she has (apparently) poor test-taking skills, even when accommodated for the ADHD.

No (and I know this will sound completely awful and unsympathetic) because she does not impress me as the type of person who can make the personal sacrifices that you MUST make to be in a NSG program. You surrender your life--and in many ways--the lives of your family, to the will and whim of the hospital. If you have to stop and pump (hell, if you have to stop and EAT), you're just dead weight and somebody else (like my DH!) will have to pick up your slack.

It's not fair. It doesn't reflect a woman/mother-friendly attitude. But it is reality. If you want to be a NSG and you are a woman, great. If you want my DH to suffer (and his family to suffer) because he has to work around your personal lifestyle choice, screw you. If you can't keep up with all the demands of the program AND have kids, then go kids on your own time because now you're butting into mine. That's how I feel, anyway.

Well, she would fit in OK at dh's residency/fellowship program. Maybe he just came from a more sympathetic (re: HUMAN) program. :huh: And, this honestly wouldn't be as big an issue in a specialty such as rads. I also don't think this would make dh or myself suffer in the slightest - as long as she was reading her share of studies then why would it?

And, I do take it that this latest post is inclined towards the mentality that perhaps mothers do not belong in medicine? Because the fact is that ALL mothers in medicine will, at one time or another, need time off to physically give birth, will have sick children, etc. But, the fact is that ALL fathers in medicine will also have wives giving birth and sick children. Should we continue to treat mothers as we do the fathers (ie fairly ruthlessly) OR should we start treating all parents as...parents and adjusting schedules, attitudes, and even expectations accordingly?

I don't think we're giving mothers too much if we're making allowances for giving birth, breastfeeding, and sick kids. I do think we need to give the same to fathers. And, in so doing adjust everything accordingly. Rather than taking just an anti-fatherhood "system" and turning it into an overall anti-parenthood "system" out of a sense of fairness, I think it would be better to have a system in place that was neither anti-fatherhood NOR anti-motherhood. In other words: I just don't think that two wrongs make a right. So, "leveling the playing field" by making motherhood an extremely unattractive option for women in medicine because that is the way MEN have historically been treated in regard to fatherhood in medicine just seems....wrong. Even vindictive.

[poky]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Well, she would fit in OK at dh's residency/fellowship program. Maybe he just came from a more sympathetic (re: HUMAN) program. :huh: And, this honestly wouldn't be as big an issue in a specialty such as rads. I also don't think this would make dh or myself suffer in the slightest - as long as she was reading her share of studies then why would it?

Right, this definitely seems like something that's specialty-dependent.

And, I do take it that this latest post is inclined towards the mentality that perhaps mothers do not belong in medicine? Because the fact is that ALL mothers in medicine will, at one time or another, need time off to physically give birth, will have sick children, etc. But, the fact is that ALL fathers in medicine will also have wives giving birth and sick children. Should we continue to treat mothers as we do the fathers (ie fairly ruthlessly) OR should we start treating all parents as...parents and adjusting schedules, attitudes, and even expectations accordingly?

As long as that doesn't mean "letting parents do less work while those who don't happen to have kids have to pick up the slack", I'm all for more human work expectations, especially in medicine. And even if it does mean non-parents have more work, as long as that means those non-parents get more benefits/compensation/other time off/whatever for the extra work, that's OK, too, as long as the trade-off is up front and reasonably equitable.

[Rapunzel]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

It is funny (not ha-ha funny, but funny as in "notable"): every so often in a thread, folks will start commenting on the heightened hostility being expressed. Apparently, an argument (discourse regarding an issue) will slip into a perceived "fight" (that is, the heat level on the discussion has gone up to an uncomfortable level) :fight: I think my thermometer for measuring that heat level is in Kelvin degrees or is otherwise completely nonstandard. I mean, I can definitely pick up on when there's a "one man against the mob" situation, but I am pretty clueless at recognizing what gets perceived as "hostility." When someone comments on it, I'm usually thinking, "Really?"

I am sure that you guys who note hostility are correct. I'm not challenging that. I just think that, maybe because of my line of work, my baseline for "hostile" is a lot different. Very little of anything I've seen on this site ever even registers on my hostility radar. I guess I just assume everyone is cool with the fact that people disagree and it's not personal. I mean, it's just almost impossible to hurt my feelings by substantively rejecting my argument, so I guess I assume everyone else is that way, too--especially if they are treading into the Debates Forum.
But, you know, maybe this assumption is not always a good one. If people are very personally invested in their position, they could perceive rejection of that position (especially if overwhelming) as hostility.

I am not sure. Giving people credit for genuinely believing in their position and being personally invested in it--as versus being a mercenary for hire to advocate for a client's position--is a pretty hard thing for an attorney to imagine.

I think I was mostly surprised at some of the word choices used. And, there is a seeming open hostility towards the woman in question (total stranger). I haven't seen hostility towards posters here. None at all, really. I guess I was surprised at the hostility expressed towards this particular woman....