Bullying in Med School

[MrsK]

Honestly, not too impressed or persuaded by this. If you think med school is mean, try the real world by comparison. Or law school. But I guess morale might be higher if there was no naming calling. But that's pretty much true in any context.

Initally, this was my reaction too. There is a lot of bullying in law school. The profession attracts aggressive people and the training involves learning how to advocate for and defend positions. Once I learned that my professors were going to play devil's advocate no matter what I said and that my success depended on my ability to argue more than having the right answers, law school was much easier. Still, I disliked the verbal sparing and mind games that occured both in and outside the classroom. It was only worse after I began practicing law. I cried in the ladies room every day during my first two years of practice and I absolutely hated all the litigation jackasses who really loved a good fight. Guess that's why I went into transactions - less confrontational, more cooperative, but I still got my head ripped off on a regular basis. Now that I don't practice, I don't get migraines. I don't have panic attacks any more. It never occured to me that what is normal in the practice of law, is not normal.

While bullying has it's place in law and I agree that residents and students should be corrected when they are not doing their jobs well, I tend agree that it is unnecessary to use abusive language or yell at a young doctor. There is a lot of discussion about "civility in the law" and other professions would probably be well-served by having similar discussions.

[PrincessFiona]

My experiences with the *real world* working in the lab and teaching at a University are that the assholes can have less power over you. When you are a student (of any kind) or resident, speaking up could cost you your grade ... or as we have seen here a couple times ... even your abilitt to graduate residency and practice.

Once you enter the real world you can switch jobs, choose not to interact with le buttheads, or tell them to get over themselves. This isn't alwsys the case, but it is more likely.

And hey .... maybe the real world needs a healthy dose of prozac.

There is never an excuse for bullying behavior. Reprimands? Yes. Bullying? No.

Kris

[SuzySunshine]

So we get to kick people off because of things that are said in the debate thread now? There are no words...

[weeniegeniewife]

So we get to kick people off because of things that are said in the debate thread now? There are no words...

No, it sounds like the issue went way, way back. But I don't know details.

[diggitydot]

So we get to kick people off because of things that are said in the debate thread now? There are no words...

There's a huge difference between debating ideas with each other (which is all sorts of kosher) and denigrating each other (which isn't why this place exists).

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

It's not a healthy debate to blame and label new members for old members leaving.

[SuzySunshine]

So we just outright ban someone instead of maybe giving them a warning behind the scenes - I think we've all said things on here that we would either reword or change at one point or another - or maybe not but I think jumping on here and blasting old members who aren't here to defend themselves and then banning someone flat out is not the way this community was set-up or run over the years. I'm just really disappointed in all of it.

[Thirteen]

I feel like I should say something, since I originally posted this article, to clear up a few things.

1). I posted this article, because it surprises me that a widely-distributed and read paper just now acknowledged this as a problem. Whether or not it has been your own personal experience, I am disheartened to think that this is some sort of "secret" to those outside of the medical world.

2). Abuse is abuse. I am not comparing "You were late, so I single you out and embarrass you by asking you questions you probably don't know the answer to.", to some of the terrible, behind-the-scenes things that my spouse has personally gone through (and others on this site as well), both in medical school and beyond.
Did he ever complain? No. Does he complain to this day? No. But, does that make it right? Are we so numbed to this kind of action that we accept complacently, and sadly, do nothing? I see that in other fields, this would not be tolerated. It saddens me to think that disciplines like medicine and law are still enduring this as the norm.

3). Life is hard enough. Life will teach lessons, character can be built from them. What the world needs, is more kindness. More empathy, willingness to show compassion. Vulnerability in the very-real understanding that these are people, trying to learn as much as they can, to help others who are sick or dying. Does debasing their humanness help them give a differential diagnosis, prescribe a medication, or empathize with the very people they are treating? I can't pretend that I believe it does.

I refuse to believe that, because my opinion may differ, that I am weak-minded.

[weeniegeniewife]

SS, I truly think there is much more to the story, but again, I am fairly out of the loop. It sounds like there is some significant history behind Kris' decision.

[diggitydot]

There are usually a LOT of things going on behind the scenes that most members aren't privy to knowing. Just because you didn't see someone reprimanded or warned, doesn't mean it hasn't ever happened. Really, it's no one else's business who is or isn't warned about something. If I were to be reprimanded, I wouldn't want it to be public info.

I think what was witnessed was a proverbial last straw.

[scrub-jay]

There are usually a LOT of things going on behind the scenes that most members aren't privy to knowing. Just because you didn't see someone reprimanded or warned, doesn't mean it hasn't ever happened. Really, it's no one else's business who is or isn't warned about something. If I were to be reprimanded, I wouldn't want it to be public info.

I think what was witnessed was a proverbial last straw.

Along with SS's line of thinking, if we haven't witnessed the behind-the-scenes warnings or reprimands (not saying we should at all), it does make the public banning feel awfully sudden. Which in turn makes me think "if I say one thing that the group disagrees with (like maybe this thought) ... am I next?" I mean, is it my business who gets banned either? Since I don't know the history, I only see the ultimate public outcome... it grows fear.

[SuzySunshine]

I have been a member of this site since January of 2004, 8 1/2 years and I think sometimes to much stuff goes on behind the scenes that people should be privy to. Because to call someone out like that and not explain things so that everyone can understand just under minds the unity of this group. I think a lot of people brought up valid points and I think Thirteen's point that we may know this happens but a lot of people outside of our world don't is a good point. I think its an interesting change in generations/upbringings. I don't have a horse in this race so I'll bow out of the discussion.

ETA: cross posted with scrub-jay

[Meenah]

Originally Posted by diggitydotThere are usually a LOT of things going on behind the scenes that most members aren't privy to knowing. Just because you didn't see someone reprimanded or warned, doesn't mean it hasn't ever happened. Really, it's no one else's business who is or isn't warned about something. If I were to be reprimanded, I wouldn't want it to be public info.

I think what was witnessed was a proverbial last straw.

Yes, this.

[alison]

I speak for myself here when I say that publicly kicking someone out doesn't sit well with me. My sense is that you pull the individual into the principal's office, and do what you have/want to do with them there. This does grow fear.

[PrincessFiona]

I stand by my decision. I do completely appreciate and respect your feelings about how it was carried out though. No one was banned for what they "said in the debate forums". However, abusing others by attacking them for expressing their points of view isn't ok.

It's enough. It's one thing to disagree and post it respectfully. It's an entirely different issue to tear them apart.

This is a pattern of behavior.

My guess is that if you had been on the receiving end of this vitriol, that I would have heard about it!

As far as mentioning users who aren't here to defend themselves?

This particular user suggested that it was people like the ones starting and responding to this post that were the cause of the exodus ... and then told them to just "carry on" though.

She mentioned people whining but not taking action.

Action was taken in just the way she suggested regarding her bullying behavior ... in a thread about bullying. I responded exactly like she said that I should. I took the hard stance she should appreciate.

If anyone feels very upset about my decision, I'm more than happy to talk about it privately. I won't, however, discuss this user or anything about her because that is not my style. I am happy to talk about your feelings.

This is a place of support where members should feel free to whine, complain, share successes and celebrate victories without fear if being attacked.

Kris