Bullying in Med School

[Thirteen]

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0...?smid=fb-share

I didn't put this in debates, because I don't even think it's debatable.
For those of you still in, I tip my hat. For those of you who are finished, let me grab my drink.

Carry on.

[GrayMatterWife]

Honestly, not too impressed or persuaded by this. If you think med school is mean, try the real world by comparison. Or law school. But I guess morale might be higher if there was no naming calling. But that's pretty much true in any context.

[ides]

Not surprised though I thought the abuse in residency was worse.

[scrub-jay]

This has got to be cultural, DH has never experienced this at all here. Maybe our area is super laid back, but this was surprising to both of us. I'd like to know who they surveyed.

[SoonerTexan]

Hmm one rotation down and we haven't really seen this. I guess there is always time, though!

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Not surprised though I thought the abuse in residency was worse.

This.

In med school, it seemed all about showing the med students the cool stuff in each rotation and trying to woo them to their specialty. In residency, the gloves are off...they've got you and they don't care about your self-esteem at all.

Honestly, not too impressed or persuaded by this. If you think med school is mean, try the real world by comparison. Or law school. But I guess morale might be higher if there was no naming calling. But that's pretty much true in any context.

I don't agree with this necessarily. I can't speak to law school but abusive berating of junior folks is generally frowned upon in many business settings. At least those with HR departments. It's generally acknowledged that it's not a good way to get the best out of anyone, in any situation, for them to have extreme fear of their superiors. People simply don't perform at their best beyond a certain level of stress (also termed "arousal" in psych studies). There's an optimal level where your senses are heightened and beyond that, you're likely to underperform.

I get that it's the norm in some settings. The military and perhaps law school per your comment but I think it's dumb that medical professionals of all people don't heed the human behavior studies that demonstrate that this type of abuse is counterproductive. It's the same as the doctors who think you can "learn" to deal with a complete lack of sleep. You can probably learn to a point from being somewhat sleep deprived (as many of our spouses will demonstrate) but there is also unequivocal evidence that beyond a certain point, you're legally drunk from fatigue.

Ooops...now I've started a debate.

[poky]

This has got to be cultural, DH has never experienced this at all here. Maybe our area is super laid back, but this was surprising to both of us. I'd like to know who they surveyed.

My DH didn't, either...but some of his classmates did.

I've been earning a professional salary for more than 20 years, out in the real world, and humiliation and yelling and namecalling and being berated has *never* been a part of it. Abuse is abuse, and using a position of authority to get away with it, and being in an institutional culture that turns a blind eye to it doesn't make it right, or normal.

[SuzySunshine]

DH also didn't run into this in med school, I'm sure it was the school but there were definitely people like that in residency. The one that sticks out was actually a staff though and he had to go to anger management classes more then once because of his berating of people, both residents and nurses.

I also worked in the professional world for almost 10 years before I stayed home and in several different industries and also never encountered the humiliation/yelling/etc. that is talked about here.

[Thirteen]

Maybe it's just where we went.

His residency program wasn't so bad, give or take an attending.


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[scrub-jay]

I work in the real world too... and I have seen this in at least 2 positions. I am generally not a target, but IRL it is really hard to define or combat when the bullies are high-powered and charismatic. Documentation to HR is much tougher than it should be.

ETA: I've seen it between individuals who have worked together for years and the appropriate boundaries of behavior in the business world have become blurred.

[v-girl]

I have never seen abuse like that in the business world (unless the person getting yelled at was truly an idiot who seriously screwed up). I'm pretty sure that is not the norm everywhere in all fields.

[ladymoreta]

DH never went into specifics, but he definitely encountered this in both medical school and residency. I am appalled, coming from the business world. That's pretty much a guarantee to not get the best work out of somebody.

An example from my own experience - I had a bullying manager, so my coworkers and I were very hesitant to suggest ideas. After he left, we increased productivity and lowered our department's costs pretty significantly, but while he was there, we just tried to keep our heads low and not do anything to attract his attention. I didn't even realize it until he left and we started talking about ways to improve our team. Everyone had ideas we'd been keeping to ourselves.

[MsSassyBaskets]

I don't think DH has experienced any of this kind of bullying, whether personally or observed, yet. It doesn't seem in the culture of his school -- the professors seem relatively supportive, or at least neutral. The administration, on the other hand, is constantly giving lectures on how students should "just end their relationships now, instead of trying to hang on and make it worse down the line". They threaten that if they don't like a student they will torpedo his/her career. One administration member, who is also a lecturer for some of the legal classes, intersperses his lecture slides with fairly offensive anti-democrat/anti-Obama jokes. And this is the best bit. Once, a student had severe explosive diarrhea in a campus bathroom and left it kind of messed up. The administration announced in front of the entire lecture hall that they were going to find who did it and discipline them! They were making all sorts of threats about watching security footage, etc. to figure it out.

I've seen real bullying though, and there's been nothing like that yet. My best friend quit her job via phone call when the thought of going to work that day and enduring more of it made her physically ill. I just hope we can avoid the worst of it in residency and beyond.

[corn poffi]

I just think we are all becoming a bunch of wimps. Okay not exactly, but I get to read med student evaluations of services at work. Examples of "bullying complaints" include: "I got yelled at for showing up late", "resident wouldn't let me do anything but drive the camera, and was annoyed when I asked if I could do more", "faculty scolded me in front of my peers when I didn't know the answer", etc. If anything, some people should probably be "bullied" more.

Yes, I'm a heartless biatch, but I think that people are becoming more and more entitled and sensitive. If you are going to be a doctor, you're going to be in charge of peoples' lives. If you screw up, you should get yelled at. Shouldn't your patient not dying be more important than your fragile ego?

Obviously, some people go too far, which is totally not okay, but you'll encounter those people in every profession.

ETA: I'm having a shit-tastic day at work so I'm extra bitter today, so I might change my mind on this later. Although, ironically, my assistant is crying at work AGAIN (not okay, so unprofessional, biggest pet peeve...go hide in the bathroom and maybe if you didn't fight with your husband over the phone while you are supposed to be working, you wouldn't cry all the damn time), and my co-worker jokingly called me a bully. So maybe I just have sympathy for the devil.

[HouseofWool]

I just think we are all becoming a bunch of wimps. Okay not exactly, but I get to read med student evaluations of services at work. Examples of "bullying complaints" include: "I got yelled at for showing up late", "resident wouldn't let me do anything but drive the camera, and was annoyed when I asked if I could do more", "faculty scolded me in front of my peers when I didn't know the answer", etc. If anything, some people should probably be "bullied" more.

I had a conversation today with my 9 year old about this kind of thing today. DD3 did something totally normal and he praised her tremendously and in an ingratiating tone of voice. He meant well, but it annoys me because I don't praise kids for expected behaviors once they have them mastered. (For example, now that DD is potty trained there is no praise for peeing in the toilet. However since she still working on the other half of this, she gets a simple "good job" when she makes it in time and there are no skid marks in her undies.)

I tried to explain to DS9 that praising people when they do something that is expected of them doesn't help. That once you are a grown up, you don't get praised unless you do something extraordinary. Normally, the only time you are told how you are doing is if you make a mistake.

My guess is that the residents you mention, CP, are part of the generation that received excessive praise and don't know how to handle any sort of rebuke or criticism.