Hillary

I guess I'm just in a flame-throwing kind of mood. :>

What is it that people hate about Hillary??

Personally, I'm quite fond of her. Do I think she should be the Dem nominee in 2008? Nope. She's too polarizing and has NO chance at winning. It's more important to me to get the Republicans out of the White House than to put Hillary back in.

[mommax3]

I just plain don't respect her. And yeah, I probably hold her to a higher standard *because* she is a woman.

Here is why: either she stayed with Bill because she has no self-respect OR she saw him as a fast ticket to the top. Either way, she is a poor personal example.

Also, I can't stand her.

And, btw, I realize that the republicans have absolutely *not* cornered the market on being worthy of respect.

Sally

Here's my thing about the "Hillary staying w/Bill" issue (and I'm not lumping you into it Sally - it's more the 'right wing / family values' coalition). Most of the folks that complain about Hillary staying with Bill are the same ones that proclaim that the left has no family values. Hillary stayed with her husband through his infidelities - for whatever reason. She stayed with her marriage. HIS moral fiber is truly at issue here, IMO. If 'sanctity of marriage' is an issue, then it seems she's upheld her end of the bargain on that front. Plus - even with the nutty antics of Bill, it seems they've managed to raise a daughter who is pretty together. At least she isn't frequently grabbing headlines for her arrests, partying, or general misconduct..

I don't think she needed him for a 'fast ticket to the top'. She's a pretty smart cookie all on her own. I think they worked together as a team to achieve what they have.

[DCJenn]

Hillary-

I've never been able to figure out exactly what it is about her that annoys people, to be honest.

So, her husband cheated on her and she stayed...hmm, so if we JUST include First Ladies from this century, we're now including Barbara Bush, Jackie Kenndey, Lady Bird Johnson, Eleanor Roosevelt, Mamie Eisenhower, and that's just off the top of my head.

So, she ran for Congress after her husband held public office: I think there are three or four people currently in Congress who have taken their husband's position after being widowed. No, Bill's not dead but it's not that far of a stretch.

Maybe she stayed because she actually loves the guy, maybe she stayed for her own political gain, maybe she stayed for their daughter, maybe for a combination of all of the above. So what? I honestly can't imagine why it all matters so very much. There are movie stars with a lot fewer apparent morals that everyone idolizes.

I don't get it.

jenn

PS- and she's hot in person, by the way

[SueC]

I'm glad you put this on here Jenn. I've always tried to figure out just what it is about Hillary that people can't stand so much. I couldn't believe she was so crucified for staying in her marriage. That is such a personal issue that so many women (or men to be fair) face unfortunately, and to judge a woman for staying in her marriage is just plain wrong, in my opinion. I would venture to guess that had she left Bill she would still be just as hated.
Is it her politics? Does she stand for something really terrible? I guess since she is in NY, I haven't paid much attention to her policies, but what I have seen of her I like.
And, no, I don't think I want to see her as a candidate in 2008. I don't think the nation is ready for a woman to be in the oval office so I'd rather a male Democratic who has a better chance be on the ticket.

[Meenah]

I have already informed DH that I will quit work and put graduate school on hold to work for her campaign!
Luanne

[mommax3]

I don't think I am explaining myself very well. It is not the fact that she stayed in her marriage that annoys me as much as the feeling I get that it was for cynical reasons, or for lack of respect for HERSELF.

I don't think she needed him for a 'fast ticket to the top'. She's a pretty smart cookie all on her own.

I whole-heartedly believe this. I would respect her way, way more if she had made her own way....and I think she could/would have.

So, her husband cheated on her and she stayed...hmm, so if we JUST include First Ladies from this century, we're now including Barbara Bush, Jackie Kenndey, Lady Bird Johnson, Eleanor Roosevelt, Mamie Eisenhower, and that's just off the top of my head.

Again, it is not the fact that she stayed, but more the reasons that she stayed (which I admit I can't know for sure) that bother me.

There are movie stars with a lot fewer apparent morals that everyone idolizes.

But we don't vote them into public office!

I don't respect Hillary because I don't think she has shown that she respects herself and her abilities, it is that simple. I don't respect the political office that she holds, because there was nothing grass roots about that at all.....but I guess that is not what politics is all about these days in this country. The women you mention, Jenn, who took over their husband's congressional seats....correct me if I am wrong, but those women had been in the trenches with their husbands through multiple campaigns. Those women knew the issues and the PEOPLE they were representing. I am sure Hillary knows the issues at this point, but really, she does NOT have the background of these other women.....it's not an equitable comparison.

Maybe she stayed because she actually loves the guy, maybe she stayed for her own political gain, maybe she stayed for their daughter, maybe for a combination of all of the above. So what? I honestly can't imagine why it all matters so very much.

It matters to me because if she were to become president.....really, even if she runs.....she will be the "example" for all the girls and young women in this country of the ultimate successful female politician, and I find that very sad.

I think I probably am the one who doesn't get it, because character and integrity are huge to me when it comes to elected officials, and it seems like a lot of people just don't care about that any more, or have been able to get past it. I know, also, that republicans haven't cornered the market on either of those fronts, which is what makes me tend towards apathy on all political matters.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

Sally, How didn't Hillary make her own way? I'm just curious, but...here is a little of what she did without Bill:

Graduated from Wellesley College (where she excelled...can Bush say that about himself?) She was actually the first student in the history of Wellesley to give the commencement address at her own graduation.

Graduated from Yale Law School (where she was on the board of editors of the Yale Law Review. Again, she excelled...something our dear president also can't say about himself.

Worked for the Children's Defense Fund and also began a fledgling political career working with an impeachment inquiry staff that advised the Judiciary Committe of the House (isn't THAT ironic!)..this was all during Watergate.

After THAT, she went to Arkansas with Bill. And...though she didn't grab the limelight, she never sat still...she sat on boards for education, children's defense funds, etc...always fighting for the rights of children, families and the little guy.

It's not like she was a cute little bonde airhead who grabbed onto a powerful man and said "take me to the top".

As a matter of fact, she had to do a lot of putting her own career stuff on hold because her husband was so powerful. Every attempt she made to step out on her own while Bill was president was met with the roll of the eyes/doesn't she know her place kind of rhetoric. She waited until Bill was out of the white house to become Senator of New York.

Apparently, Hillary should have had a 'balls to the wall' approach and should have pursued her own career above her husband and family in order to have a 'respectable career' now? But then...she probably would be looked down on for not having stood by her man or taken care of Chelsea?

kris

[PrincessFiona]

And, no, I don't think I want to see her as a candidate in 2008. I don't think the nation is ready for a woman to be in the oval office so I'd rather a male Democratic who has a better chance be on the ticket.

Why don't you think we are ready for a woman in the oval office? Quite frankly, I think we're way overdue. Think of the countries in this world who already have women 'running the show'. Here we profess to be this great, forward-thinking nation and we aren't 'ready'? Ready for what? Progress? Real Discussion? An end to lockerroom size-measurement politics? :>

kris

[PrincessFiona]

[quote:cab3e]So, her husband cheated on her and she stayed...hmm, so if we JUST include First Ladies from this century, we're now including Barbara Bush, Jackie Kenndey, Lady Bird Johnson, Eleanor Roosevelt, Mamie Eisenhower, and that's just off the top of my head.

Again, it is not the fact that she stayed, but more the reasons that she stayed (which I admit I can't know for sure) that bother me.[/quote:cab3e]

But if you admit that you can't know the reasons for sure, then why does it bother you so much? You are assuming that she stayed with him in order to become more 'powerful' or something.

[quote:cab3e]There are movie stars with a lot fewer apparent morals that everyone idolizes.

But we don't vote them into public office![/quote:cab3e]

Ronald Reagan!

I don't respect Hillary because I don't think she has shown that she respects herself and her abilities, it is that simple. I don't respect the political office that she holds, because there was nothing grass roots about that at all.....but I guess that is not what politics is all about these days in this country. The women you mention, Jenn, who took over their husband's congressional seats....correct me if I am wrong, but those women had been in the trenches with their husbands through multiple campaigns. Those women knew the issues and the PEOPLE they were representing. I am sure Hillary knows the issues at this point, but really, she does NOT have the background of these other women.....it's not an equitable comparison.

Actually, Hillary has more background educationally and politically than any of the other women who ended up in their spouse's seats....experience and education that she got independent of her spouse. As a matter of fact, one could make a greater argument that THOSE women were riding on the coattails of their powerful men.

[quote:cab3e]Maybe she stayed because she actually loves the guy, maybe she stayed for her own political gain, maybe she stayed for their daughter, maybe for a combination of all of the above. So what? I honestly can't imagine why it all matters so very much.

It matters to me because if she were to become president.....really, even if she runs.....she will be the "example" for all the girls and young women in this country of the ultimate successful female politician, and I find that very sad.[/quote:cab3e]

I still don't get what would be so sad? A woman gets a great education where she excels, gets married and continues to work in her chosen profession while supporting her husband and raising a child....Husband's career starts to wind down, daughter finishes college....woman jumps into her own career. Sounds good to me.

I think I probably am the one who doesn't get it, because character and integrity are huge to me when it comes to elected officials, and it seems like a lot of people just don't care about that any more, or have been able to get past it.

Cough *bush* Cough, Cough, Cough!

kris

[PrincessFiona]

OK...last word on this...for now :> After the Lewinsky scandals etc came out, didn't both Bill and Hillary write about what a painful time it was in their marriage?

[Laker]

Hillary and Bill both stole tons of stuff from the White House when they moved out. Why do that?

Hillary hates big business. Big business drives the world economy and creates jobs, not welfare recipients. Hillary loves welfare and giving government handouts.

And, no, I don't think I want to see her as a candidate in 2008. I don't think the nation is ready for a woman to be in the oval office so I'd rather a male Democratic who has a better chance be on the ticket.

Why don't you think we are ready for a woman in the oval office? Quite frankly, I think we're way overdue. Think of the countries in this world who already have women 'running the show'. Here we profess to be this great, forward-thinking nation and we aren't 'ready'? Ready for what? Progress? Real Discussion? An end to lockerroom size-measurement politics? :>

kris

I don't agree that the nation isn't ready for a woman to be in the oval office, my issue is that Hillary isn't the woman who can get that accomplished (at least right now). For better or worse, she's far too polarizing to grab enough electoral votes to do it -- and it's more important to me that the dems win back the White House. Perhaps with a term or two more in the senate under her belt and a little more distance between the last Clinton in the White House.

The positive about the name association is that I can't IMAGINE that Jeb Bush has a snowball's chance in Florida of making it in 2008. Please, let me be right for once.

As far as Laker's comments, the dislikes of Hillary he mentioned are more dem vs. republican issues -- not the specific issues w/Hillary. I know nothing about Hillary and Bill "stealing" stuff from the White House when they left. I do know that from one adminstration to another it is tradition (albeit silly) for pranks to be played, and I remember the "W"'s missing from all the keyboards - but I don't remember a big stink about outright theft.

Now - Sally is the only one who has stepped into the ring on the "no" side of Hillary --- and I KNOW there are more Hillary-haters out there. I'm truly curious why she is so inflamatory.

[Laker]

Hillary is a race baiter. See http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/17/ ... lantation/

This of course, comes after her famous "Ghandi joke".

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/ ... linton.ap/

[HeartRN]

As far as not liking Hillary, I think my dislike started after I wrote an entire paper on her and her plans to reform healthcare....frightening, IMHO. I completely agree that something has to give with Americans and healthcare, especially now that I have worked hours trying to get authorization for a transplant patient's immunosuppressive medication!!! But I don't think the Hillary-way was/is a solution...as far as not liking her...I don't know if I can pinpoint it exactly...something about her just strikes me as lacking in authenticity....I question the way she carries herself, how she interacts with others....I could care less about what goes on with her and her husband. She was also born with a silver spoon, which I shouldn't hold against her, but there is something distasteful to me about her style when it comes to attempting to represent the poorer people of the US...as if she has even a clue......I know most Republicans don't have a clue either, but to me, it's all how Hillary delivers her message that turns me off.

Do I have any other viable alternatives? Nope...I'm not really a huge fan of politicians lately, regardless of party! I'll let you know if I find somebody I do love.