Affirmative Action

[Gwendolyn]

I teach public speaking at Marquette and we are in the midst of students giving their persuasive speeches. Today a gentleman applying for law school argued against the use of affirmative action to promote fair admissions. He clearly outlined the debate, but I can't help thinking that he is only concerned because he's afraid of not getting into law school...without regard to the grossly unrepresentative demographics of U.S. universities. I know that DH held similar concerns when applying for medical school, but once he was in, shifted perspective...Do you all think affirmative action is fair? Is the idea good, but poor execution practices muddy the purpose? Is this "reverse" racism?

Thought I would draw away from the freakish tomkitten

[Rapunzel]

My husband is an under-represented minority (URM) and is opposed to affirmitive action - both before AND after his acceptances into college, medical school, and residency. I think he's worked twice as hard as everyone else in order to dispel any misconceptions that he got where he is because he's hispanic. In that way affirmitive action is a HUGE pain in the rear.

That's the quick answer from our side of things.

[DCJenn]

Can't bear to watch the train wreck anymore?

OK- I'll jump into the fray.

I believe that Affirmative Action if practiced the way it should be, i.e. all candidates having absolutely equal footing- same scores, same grades, same interview skills, etc. it's a good way to guarantee equal access.

However, it rarely if ever works that way.

There's a big push right now for the National Baseball Team to have minority ownership. The issue is that so far there haven't been any people interested in buying them who are minorities (there are teams of people interested, most of the teams are comprised of white, middle aged men, a la W when he owned a stake in the Rangers). So, now all of the teams are essentially begging successful minorities to put up a stake to help buy the team. We have more minority owned businesses in DC and the metro area than in any other part of the country- I have to believe that if a team of successful minority business owners wanted to buy the team, they'd have no problem coming up w/ the money or the Front Office talent.

Instead, the Old White Guys are suddenly adding Black and Asian management staff to the groups. My point is: they should have had minorities all along. (and no, there are few women on any of the candidate teams)

Of course, the enlisted miltary is comprised of poor kids: the minorities from the inner cities and the white kids from the country....my husband being the poor kid from what used to be the desert of California.

Jenn

[Tenacious_D]

Do I dare...Ok, here's my thought: I am a URM. I know for a fact that race helped get me into boarding school and college, but that's not what made me succeed. I walked away from HS with the highest award presented to a student and college with honors. I did not get the highest SAT scores because the students I competed against, at the time, had attended private school their whole lives and had numerous tutors. There was no way that I could compete on the same level but I was given the opportunity to compete and I excelled. I don't always think that affirmative action has been used in the appropriate way but without it, I may not have gotten to where I am. I DO NOT think it is fair when a person of color is chosen over a Non URM based on skin color alone (simply to fill a quoto...that's not fair for the URM or the passed over candidate). They have to be comparable in some ways, i.e. personality, motivation etc. Too often people will assume, that because I am black that's how I got to where I am. My final thought is affirmative action is helpful when used appropriately. I know a lot of URM's who rather it not be present but without it who's to say that they would have ever been considered for a particular position or school.

I hope this all made sense.

[SuzySunshine]

My thoughts are very close to Jenn's. My DH is a white male who TOTALLY feels that he didn't get into or even interviews at some of his top medical school programs because of AA. He had a 4.0 GPA, was top of his class, one of the most difficult Chemical Engineering programs in the country, had tons of organizations, volunteering, intramural sports, great MCAT scores, basically everything you need to look good on paper and he didn't even get interviews at half of his schools. When he did get to Stanford (after being wait listed and getting in at the last minute) I would estimate there were 10-15 white guys in his entire class.

I guess my concern is that when my sons are applying to colleges and grad schools are they going to be discriminated against because they'll be white males who don't need financial aid and therefore they don't fit any niche that the university or school needs to fill for quota purposes.

Use it, but use it right - I don't think that will ever happen.

[Tenacious_D]

I just want to remind everyone that there is a reason why people are called URM's there aren't that many of them in certain places and medical school is an underrepresented field for certain people of color. DH did not get into all his schools and he had a 4.0 and 38 MCAT score but I don't believe he didn't get in because some person of color took "his spot" (we should remind ourselves that no one is gauranteed a spot into medical school). I believe he didn't get in because he didn't have what they were looking for and that's that. The problem with affirmative action is that people assume that others are taking their spots. I don't remember the last time I walked into Goldman Sachs or Harvard University's campus and felt overwhelmed by the number of URM's present. I hope I don't sound too bothered about this but I've been dealing with a lot of this my whole life.

I am so torn on this issue. Working in K-12 education reform, I see a STAGGERING achievement gap that, without intervention, only grows as students get older. I see that gap lessening dramatically in the schools where we work, but it's not because any minority or majority is handed an advantage, but because we're decreasing class size, really engaging students in the material, and assigning every student a faculty advocate that will not let them fall through the cracks. Basically, we're treating these inner-city, disadvantaged, largely minority schools as though they were in a smaller suburban district with highly-qualified teachers who encourage them not only to graduate, but to go on to college and pursue promising careers. Ideally, I'd love to live in a world where I thought AA, in any form, wasn't necessary. I just don't have that much faith in our public (mainly large urban) education systems, and certainly not in NCLB - which allows schools to OMIT test scores from various URMs! I think AA is a band-aid for a much larger problem that needs to be fixed on another level.

[SuzySunshine]

I don't think anyone, regardless of their skin color or nationality is entitled to a spot but that means all equal applicants should get interviews and that doesn't happen.

[Flynn]

I truly can see both sides of this.

I think people should be rewarded based on merit. However, my dad has had his share of bosses who knew half of what he knew but amazingly were not white males. After the seventh one, it made me, a pretty firm believer in the idea of AA, to question things.

I also think our country has an embarassing history of discrimination and something like AA was, in my opinion, needed and still is.

How individuals or groups interpret AA is at times suspect. Different companies or admissions departments might make ethically questionable decisions -- or not. There is so much subjectivity to "getting in or getting the job" these days.

What burns me is when two top applicants are equal except for race and subjective areas like essay or interview. When the white guy says he didn't get the job or the spot because the other person was a minority pisses me off. That MAY be the case -- but it could be the interview or essay.

There is a large group of people in this country who are used to a certain sense of success, and if they didn't EARN it for whatever reason, fingers get pointed. Entitlement is so unattractive. Life isn't fair. Doors get closed. Deal with it and make them eat their rejection.

[DCJenn]

First, Thanks Danielle for your contribution- it's all easy for some of us to imagine the issue but never have to really deal with it, glass ceiling excused.

I have a friend who works in Corporate America and unfortunately has been told things like, "we're too white and we need to add a ______ to the team."

Not, wow, let's interview some more people because we need more staff and let's make sure to hire a person of color if they're qualified. and let's not forget people with disabilities. They pretty much get the shaft all aorund. and overweight people, too. Of course, in my ideal world people would send in resumes without names or addresses so that they're automatically equalized.

The bottom line is that all of the 'isms suck. I just wish I knew some way to level the playing field.

Jenn

[Tenacious_D]

I would hope that at some point the US wouldn't need any kind of affirmative action but we should also remember this isn't a black-white issue. Women have also benefited from affirmative action and have been given opportunities that otherwise wouldn't have been available to them.

Yeah, it sucks when you work your ass off get left in the dirt. But the reality in life is the people who feel shafted by AA are the ones who didn't get the job at Morgan Stanley and had to settle for Lehman brothers! Life is tough sometimes but I really wish that people wouldn't blame someone else because they weren't recognized for their talents. I will say again that I don't think AA is the greatest thing out there but it helps more people than it hurts. AA doesn't say "Hey there sub par black man, come and take this extremely talented sophisticated well mannered white males job...I know you can't do it but you sure do look right for the position"

I think this will be my last post on the subject. This is why I stayed away from the Debates section for so long!

[SuzySunshine]

This was also just an issue on our town's fire department. Our city received a grant after 9/11 which stated that the city had to do their part to hire more women and minorities. When appointments came up last month the six that were selected were the six at the top of the list, all white males. The list is based on test scores only. The first women or minority on the list was #35. Number six is a friend of ours and almost got bumped off the list for #35 because a local politician said we weren't hiring enough women or minorities. THAT is the perfect example of what I think is not fair and how AA doesn't work.

I'll admit my DH's med school example may not be the best example. He wasn't entitled to interviews and we all know how competitive medical school is. :!

Danielle, don't stay away - that is why what is said in the debate forum stays in the debate forum, some topics just hit a little closer to home for some then other topics do.

[Rapunzel]

I did not get the highest SAT scores because the students I competed against, at the time, had attended private school their whole lives and had numerous tutors. There was no way that I could compete on the same level but I was given the opportunity to compete and I excelled.

It might make you feel better to think that, but.... I grew up incredibly poor, went to a very large, largely poor school in a largely poor school district. Yet, I somehow did better on my SAT's than most kids attending private schools in other school districts. I never buy the "I was poor" excuse for not getting better grades/higher scores/etc. Why? Because my husband and I were truly poor (with my husband being homeless for a while in his childhood). And, we didn't see our economic background as a handicap.

Too often people will assume, that because I am black that's how I got to where I am.

Except ------ You pretty much previously stated that that is how you got "where you are"! Your words:

I don't always think that affirmative action has been used in the appropriate way but without it, I may not have gotten to where I am.

My final thought is affirmative action is helpful when used appropriately. I know a lot of URM's who rather it not be present but without it who's to say that they would have ever been considered for a particular position or school.

How awful that people would be left guessing that they got where they did because they met a quota rather than because they fairly competed against everyone else! The way to know that you got where you did (like my husband) is by NOT having affirmitive action present in the process. The UT system where my husband went for medical school did away with affirmitive action and, thus, he knows he got in on his merits competing fairly.

Affirmitive action is about removing fairness from the selection process out of some misguided sense of pity.

[Rapunzel]

I just want to remind everyone that there is a reason why people are called URM's there aren't that many of them in certain places and medical school is an underrepresented field for certain people of color. DH did not get into all his schools and he had a 4.0 and 38 MCAT score but I don't believe he didn't get in because some person of color took "his spot" (we should remind ourselves that no one is gauranteed a spot into medical school). I believe he didn't get in because he didn't have what they were looking for and that's that. The problem with affirmative action is that people assume that others are taking their spots. I don't remember the last time I walked into Goldman Sachs or Harvard University's campus and felt overwhelmed by the number of URM's present. I hope I don't sound too bothered about this but I've been dealing with a lot of this my whole life.

The reason why the UT system removed affirmitive action was because of a court case where a better qualified WHITE MALE candidate WAS passed over for admission to medical school simply because the other, lesser qualified candidate was classified as a URM. That case demonstrated that people ARE taking spots from better qualified candidates using the "race" card of affirmitive action.

[Rapunzel]

The bottom line is that all of the 'isms suck. I just wish I knew some way to level the playing field.

Most of my friends and my children's friends are from the inner-city of Boston. Most of them are NOT white genetically. Most of them ARE poor - very poor. Most of my inlaws are not white - heck, most of them aren't even from this country.

My observation is that unequal representation is due in large part to the disintegration of the family along with certain cultures simply not valuing education.