walking in another's shoes

[Rapunzel]

Kris, don't be surprised if now you get some politically-correct, guilt-ridden individuals sending you complaints about my post. My only comment for those who do this is: If the water is too hot, get out of the pot. An opinion makes some people uncomfortable because it forces them to question and examine their own choices and reasonings. Unfortunately many people find this glaring light shined upon their own decisions to be too blinding and painful. Sad but true.

Jennifer,
I don't see why anyone would complain about that. You clearly stated your opinion and kept it about you without make attacking remarks about anyone elses.

[mommax3]

I think that something else I have learned as I have been on this mothering "journey", trying to come to terms with my feelings regarding working vs. staying at home, is that I only get to choose for myself. It is so tempting to justify my decisions by claiming that it is the only right thing to do, but it just isn't true. I do believe that it is the only right thing for our family, but not anyone else's. I think taking a less global view of the whole thing has been an important step for me, one that came with time and maturity, and one that has been very freeing for me as well.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

motherhood

Well, I am not really concerned about getting many emails 8) I think we all can handle other people's opinions.

I think that for me, the decision to stay at home had nothing to do with Thomas' career either, Jennifer. It was something unexpected by my family and myself. I had been raised by a working mom, was expected to have a career and never even contemplated the idea that I might 'want' to stay at home. As a matter of fact, when my dad found out that I was pregnant with my first son, his reaction was "great, now you'll never be anything"....which was a huge blow to my self-esteem. Mothering as a profession was not valued by my father...even when my mom wanted to stay home it was seen as a sign of laziness...so I think I can speak from a different angle.

My choice to stay at home was completely a personal one based on my desire to be with Andrew and experience everything that I could...I didn't consider the sahm/working mom debate...I had even planned on returning to work 8 weeks after he was born...and instead called in on the day I was to return and quit I just couldn't do it.

But that being said, it does not mean that the choice to stay at home has been filled only with blissful times of snuggling, mixed with the aroma of my freshly baked cookies filling the air. I don't know any sahm's for whom that is true.

You know, it's funny....I find myself comparing myself negatively to other sahms because it often appears to me that they have it all together. My neighbor that I walk with is a prime example. I really felt inferior to her and that there was something wrong with me for my sometimes negative feelings, or resentments...for feeling bored or lonely. Then one morning when we went walking I had barely said good morning when she told me "I told my husband I can't do it anymore...I can't be a mother anymore...I've had it"...and the entire 45 minute walk we talked about the real frustrations and ambivalence...It occurred to me that we all wear a mask for the public to see that portrays what we think that people expect us to feel or be like...and it often isn't true to our feelings.

The bottom line, I think is that many women who stay at home are indeed intelligent, hard-working, motivated people who do at times feel frustrated by the lack of professional stimulation outside of their mothering role..who do feel lonely, who do have frustrations...

The fact that one person feels fulfilled by mothering and another doesn't feel completely fulfilled doesn't make one person a better/more valuable mother in my eyes. For every child dumped on a nanny who has issues, their are children of sahms or sahds who also have similar issues because their parents are overwhelmed, frustrated or exhausted.

Everyone's children are precious and deserve the best quality care that they can get...but who is to say that only the mother can provide that? My children have benefitted greatly from preschool...as have I. Sometimes, I was really stuck with a behavioral or emotional issue with one of my children and the preschool teacher was able to give me some insight and suggestions that really worked. Having someone else as my ally gently nudging me in the right direction while working with my chid at times has made a difference for us all. This year, Amanda's First Grade Teacher truly changed her life...I wouldn't give up this year that Amanda had with Mrs. Anderson for anything. It not only changed Amanda's level of confidence (she now is a voracious reader and we were afraid she'd never learn the alphabet ... and she has become very social) but it helped Amanda and I become closer. I was feeling a real distance and frustration and then guilt for my feelings. Mrs. Anderson had me in her classroom helping, engaged me in looking at solutions for both Amanda and I and even sat down with us both when there were discipline problems going on at HOME and addressed them with us together...always being my daughter's advocate . It was a great parenting/mothering experience for me...if not a bit of a humbling one. I guess this could be interpreted as a failure on my part to be super-mom...but I'm not perfect and I've benefitted from the help of other perspectives....and the parenting break.

For me, I was probably the happiest in my own life when I was working part-time during grad school. The kids went to preschool in the am and I went to class. I came back before lunch to pick them up and we almost always had picnics in the park, played for hours...I felt rejuvenated on the days that I went to class. I had a new...lease on life. I talked to grown-ups about anything but children, focused my energy on a separate project...and when I got in the car to pick my kids up, I felt so happy and charged to see them. We spent really good quality time together and it was a very positive time for us.

For me when I had to go full-time at the very end...it was lousy. That was too much for me to balance and I did NOT do a good job of it. This tells me that I personally couldn't be successful at managing a demanding full-time position and motherhood. The other extreme of that though, is when I am full-time mommy all the time....sometimes days bleed into each other, I forget what day it is...and I laughed as I read Sally's story about saying 'three' when she answered the phone. The other day I called Kelly and Sean answered the phone. I just sat there without saying anything for about 30 seconds because I couldn't remember who I'd called I find myself feeing grouchier and less enthusiastic about mothering....and that is not, in my opinion a character defect. It is the reality that in anything that we choose to do..if we don't have an adequate break, we can become burned out....whether it be mothering, a job, a hobby....

For me, the choice is still to stay at home right now and to find a way to create a balance for myself in my own life so that I can nurture the side of myself that feels a bit...neglected.

We all come into mothering with different histories, experiences and expectations. I think that we should be able to respect the fact that for some women it will never be possible to find happiness as a full-time professional mother...and though staying home with children may be completely fulfiling and rewarding to one person, someone raised with other expectations may find themselves frustrated or resentful. Truly, for me what works best is also doing something that occupies me in another way than just mothering. I'm doing some writing right now that has been fun, and I'm planning on taking more online courses starting in the Spring....Giving myself another objective outside of the laundry, the kitchen, the kids...makes me happier and therefore a better mother and wife I might add.

I don't plan right now on going back to work full-time until all of my children are well into their school years.....but I hope that by time I will have continued to refine my own talents/interests so that I will be marketable and will be able to get a good job. I might add though, that if the University offered me the opportunity to teach part-time I would probably do it..depending on the time commitment required on-campus. I can always grade papers/plan lectures when the kids are in bed and I've had time to spend with Thomas.....

I will admit to sometimes feeling a smudge of resentment towards the full-time working moms...not because they work, but because many of them look down their noses at the sahm. The comments that I've heard from time to time have been outrageous...and I feel that there is little appreciation for the hard job that we do. To top it off, sahms/sahds are the ones that the schools call on to do all of the volunteering....working in classrooms, helping with field trips, volunteering for the Fall/Spring festivals....So while I'm dancing with someone's first grader at the spring folk dance hoe-down (we really have one ) so that the mom can be at work, she's looking down on me as maybe not being a competent person...that stings a bit....and then I feel a real need to justify my educational background and choices.

If this issue is this complicated for women...imagine how hard it is for sahds!!!

wow...long ramble going on here...sorry about that.

kris

[SueC]

I haven't yet experienced a feeling of superiority from my mom friends who work outside the home--perhaps that comes more when the kids are in school? My friends that are working have been very supportive and I try to be conscious not to say anything that I think will hurt their feelings. I certainly don't think my choice would work for everyone! I have a very good friend who just had her third child and is hiring an au pair and I think it will be a great solution for her family--she just isn't cut out for stay-at-home mom-hood and is the first to admit it! On the other hand she has always seemed to respect my choice.
I sometimes think that by working from home I do my children more harm than if I just sent them to daycare and went to work outside the home. I do it for them so I can be with them, but they often see a "stressed out" mom who tries to squeeze in "just a few more minutes" at the computer while they are begging for my time. I have put in a video more times than I'd like to admit so I could get just a little more work done. What kind of impression am I leaving on them--that my work is more important than them? Would they be better off in a group setting where the day is more geared towards them? I'm not sure if I am doing them any special favors by working at home! Do any other work at home moms feel this way???

[Meenah]

This is a great thread. I agree we as women need to support one another, no matter what our choices are. When my girls were born I was able to stay home with them, and I loved it. It was also the hardest job I have ever had!!!! When I went back to work I worked per diem as an RN and was able to have a lot of conrol over my schedule. I now work part-time and it works for me!!
Luanne

[Rapunzel]

Jennifer,
I don't see why anyone would complain about that. You clearly stated your opinion and kept it about you without make attacking remarks about anyone elses.

I really wrote that last post in response to the apparent complaints Kris gets in private messages/emails when I post a calmly worded dissenting opinion. It was pure annoyance at that reaction is all.

[Rapunzel]

I have several questions:

-Are full-time mothers equivalent to day-care workers in the importance of the job they perform? Do children thrive as well being raised by hired help as they do being raised by their mother?

-Please define the term "fulfillment" as in "Some mothers do not find fulfillment in motherhood." I suspect there are divergences in opinion on the definition of this over-used term.

-What should be a higher priority for a parent: their own personal accomplishments or their children's emotional needs? Is it acceptable for a parent to postpone personal aspirations in order to focus on the human beings they nurture, teach, and protect?

These questions are at the heart of this subject.

[PrincessFiona]

hmmm

I've been thinking about this question a lot this weekend, and one thing I've discovered by re-reading some of my posts is that I feel a lot more hot and bothered by this topic than I thought that I did. I sense that some of my own views have become a bit...militant..and I'm uncomfortable with that. I have been asking myself why I feel so strongly and I'm not sure that I've come up with an answer yet. I feel that I may have approached this topic too strongly and I'm embarassed by my emphatic responses .

Are full-time mothers equivalent to day-care workers in the importance of the job they perform? Do children thrive as well being raised by hired help as they do being raised by their mother?

I don't know, Jennifer...I really don't. Do wide-spread independent, peer-reviewed studies show that children who have been in daycare or any alternative childcare situation dramatically underperform in relation to their peers raised at home? Are children more likely to become criminals or drug addicts if they went to daycare..or is this more likely to be related to growing up in a single parent home? Some studies would suggest that there is damage done, others rebuke that.

Perhaps the family environement and coping skills of the parents have a grater effect? It is certainly one possibilty.

-Please define the term "fulfillment" as in "Some mothers do not find fulfillment in motherhood." I suspect there are divergences in opinion on the definition of this over-used term.

How do you define fulfillment, or happiness for that matter..and is your definition or mine universal for every woman or man? I have known women who truly love and adore their children but went absolutely batty at home. It may have nothing to do with being a stay at home parent and more to do with depression, anxiety or other issues going on...But fulfillment....Do we deserve to feel happy and fulfilled? I know moms who can spend their entire day doing craft projects and playing games with their children..and they feel..satisfied at the end of each day. My walking partner finds 'fulfillment' (peace, happiness, satisfaction) in a house well-kept. She was eager to leave the corporate world where she hated the politics and backstabbing because in that arena she felt "unfuliflled". Different things fill us up and make us feel whole. For some, it is writing that perfect report or finally getting a long-awaited result...for others it is cleaning or cooking or parenting...and for many, many people...it is a combination of all of these things. Is it arrogant of us to decide that parenting alone should be the only thing that a woman can focus on in her life and that if it doesn't make her happy that there is something wrong with her? I don't think so. How can we presume to know what is best for someone else?

What should be a higher priority for a parent: their own personal accomplishments or their children's emotional needs? Is it acceptable for a parent to postpone personal aspirations in order to focus on the human beings they nurture, teach, and protect?

Well, that is kind of a loaded question, isn't it? Maybe the answer lies in us simply...not educating our daughters anymore. What is the point? After all, they are here to have and care for children. We could do it like they used to do in Germany (like the way my mil grew up). They can go to 'real' school for a certain amount of time, but instead of going to college, they can go to special schools that give them a 'degree' in housewifery...you know..cooking, cleaning, parenting...Or we could force girls to make a decision: career or kids. Or better yet, we could force a similar decision upon men: If you want to have children, you can not go into demanding fields like medicine...they may be lucrative in the looong run and may provide your family with better benefits and opportunities to take nice vacations some day in the distant future, but the choice is a selfish one because children need a mother and a father and the road to becoming a doctor is long, demanding and costly. Your family is better off with one car, in a smaller house without vacations...I'm sorry if your lifelong dream was to become a doctor and you worked your butt off to get the grades, but you can always choose to not have children. Does it sound ludicrous if it's painted like that? I think it does.

Here's a question though...Is it possible as a mother or a father to nurture some of your own personal interests/aspirations AND still be a good parent that nurtures their offspring? Does "good" parenting require 24/7 attendance? Is it ok to go to the gym and work out 5 days a week for 2-3 hours but not take a class 3 times a week for an hour? I had friends who worked out 5 DAYS a WEEK...I kid you not. They brought their children to the little childcare facility in the center....they worked out with a buddy for 1-1.5 hours and then had coffee at the coffee shop before picking up their offspring. They justified this by saying that it made them healthier, happier and better parents....my taking a class and having my chidlren out of my sight for less time though, was evidence that I was neglecting them...do we nurse a double standard?

Define postponing personal apirations? Is your husband a resident or is he postponing that until your children are in high school or college? Is it ok as long as one parent manages as practically a single parent while the other follows their aspirations? I don't know about anyone else, but during Thomas' training, he did try to be involved...he just wasn't around enough or was too busy and exhausted to be a good parent. He is the first to say that.

We took a job that many would consider a 'step down'....when friends and colleagues found out that we were moving to MN, their comments were "OH..the MAYO..that's aweseome". When they discovered that we were going to central minnesota, their jaws dropped...they did not get it! His program director (married 3 times) discouraged him strongly from making this decision....but he did it because he couldn't stand working like a dog anymore...In the beginning, Jennifer, our children wouldn't believe he was home on a weekend, didn't play much with him, didn't really know him..and he didn't really know them. Sure, he had bathed them and helped with day-to-day stuff, but it wasn't the same as really being there for them. Two years later, he is awesome with the kids and they have grown and blossomed so much from his care too...I think about the life that Aidan will have in comparison to Andrew..and it makes me sad for Andrew...He can never get that back..ever. Was Thomas selfish to study medicine? Was he selfish to have children with me before training was over? Maybe...maybe we are all a little selfish in our desire to find happiness.
:


kris

[PrincessFiona]

ugh

There I go again...I can't even stand to read my own 'debates' anymore...is that a bad sign?

kris

[Meenah]

You guys are great, and Kris don't feel embarrassed. I must admit this topic has never really interested me because I have never really cared what others think about me working/staying home/etc. I have always done what works for me & my family, and never considered what anyone else thinks. This is such a comfortable spot to be in. Of course I do have other things I obsess about!!!!
Luanne

Wow, Kris! 8O

One thing that bothers me about this is the gender issue. Why is that this weighs so much more heavily on women than men? (I know, this topic started about working moms, most people on this site are women with significant others who have time-consuming, demanding careers which impacts choices for the non-medical spouse).

I guess it would seem more reasonable if this topic was should a parent stay home with a child -- rather than does the mother stay home with a child. I know that in a lot of cases the mother wants to stay home with the children -- and that's fine with me -- and maybe that is the decision making factor for most families. But why don't we look to men to stay home more often? I have known of a few (maybe 2) families who decided that they wanted one parent to either work part time or stay home with their children and the decision resulted in dad staying home and/or working part-time. They made the decision based on the economics of how much each spouse got paid, the benefits, and the career flexibility for taking a few years off for each career. (An assumption is made here that both parents are about equally happy working or staying home). If both parents have similar desires, why shouldn't the decision be made by whose career is most flexible to going part-time or taking a few years off and whose career is economically most beneficial to the family?

This is totally off the top of my head. Maybe it is a non-issue for most.

More random thoughts.....
Staying home with kids is not a guarantee that they will do well. I think it depends a lot on the environment the child is in -- whether at home or in a preschool or daycare setting. A friend of mine is a first grade teacher and she sees this difference all the time. She has some students whose mother didn't work who are terrific kids -- academically ready for first grade or ready to learn, well-socialized, well-behaved. There are other students whose moms stayed home who obivously received relatively little stimulation those first five years, obviously spent a lot of time in front of the TV, and have behavior or discipline issues that affect the classroom. (Not that some kids are perfect and others aren't but that some clearly had much better experiences at home). Then she has kids who were in daycare and she sees a great deal of variation among those kids. She notices that some were probably in daycares that were literally just a place where kids were watched. There are other kids who learned a lot at daycare/preschool (and home) and are well-prepared for first grade.
I think this issue becomes so polarized and about black-or-white, right-or-wrong decisions and I don't think it is that easy. There is a lot of variation in the quality, experience, and outcome for kids in different settings.

[SueC]

Is it just me or did this topic stray a little--it didn't start out as a debate over whether or not mom's should stay home did it? I don't think there is one solution that will work for everyone's family and I certainly don't think we should judge others who didn't make the same choice as we did. If we insinuate that mothers who pursue their dreams are selfish than we are indeed judging them for that aren't we? I've always liked the phrase "if momma ain't happy nobody's happy"--I think that is so true! If what makes you happy and fulfilled is taking some college classes, working out every day, working outside the home, etc., then so be it. I really like Luanne's attitude about this whole subject. Why should we care if someone else thinks our choices in life are selfish? Actually on the reverse side of the coin, I have a friend who decided to stay home after her second child was born and her husband is opposed to it. She did it anyway. This has really caused a lot of stress in the marriage. I think just deciding to stay home without spousal support IS selfish! She certainly isn't doing any favors to her children if it breaks up her marriage is she?

[PrincessFiona]

wow kris

Wow, Kris! 8O 8O

Please don't take me seriously...I am playing devil's advocate here. I do not know it all, nor do I think I ever will...I am sure that I come across as a huge, pain-in-the a$$ hothead know-it-all. I apologize to everyone for my overblown opinions and forceful means of expressing them...I wish I was a bit more...tame I really do!

And just some added info here...I'm a sahm right now, and my poor kids have been fending for themselves while I think about this all, write this, and debate politics on the phone with my dad. Who the heck am I to know what is best in terms of parenting?

Anyway, sorry to insult...should I delete it?

kris

[SueC]

Kris!
I didn't take you seriously!!! Don't delete your post !