walking in another's shoes

[mommax3]

Just out of curiousity is anyone here arguing here that all mother's belong at home with their kids, or are we just repeatedly justifying our own choices???

Ha! I prefer to think of it as "thoughtful reflection and articulation".

And NO, I would never presume to say that all mothers should stay home with their kids.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

mommyhood

Is it ok if I admit almost complete confusion at this point though I still don't advocate forcing moms to stay at home with their kids. My husband and I even debated this topic tonight over lasagna and 3 noisy kids...He really took me to task on some of my opinions and justifications, made me realize that I'm much more wishy-washy than I thought that I was and in general made me feel like I don't have a clue about what I'm talking about :!:

Sue..my mom worked full-time when I was growing up and I was extremely proud of her too...she is a nurse and I never felt neglected...I even loved daycare 8) .... and yet...I have felt strongly about staying home with my own children most of the time...despite having periods where I worked outside of the home and enjoying that. I seem to always return to the sahm side and I don't know if I feel pressured to do it because people 'think' that it is the right thing to do, if I think it is the right thing to do...or WHAT!

Am I a judgemental sahm??..I'd like to think that I'm not...but in retrospect I have to say that I am likely to have some unfriendly thoughts if we are talking about a mom of a young child doing a surgical residency for example. I am ashamed, but I can't help it. Perhaps I hold the same double standard that I accuse others of holding.

(I hate it when I discuss these issues with my dh and he takes me to task I think I need therapy now to clear this all up )

I do envy women that have careers...ask Kelly..I talk incessently about having a career...and yet I don't really go for it it because I am so conflicted about what the right thing is to do...again..does that make me have a double standard? At the same time, I admit that I do feel frustrated at home and I recognize that I am not currently being the mom that I think that I should be...would they be better off in a structured program with friends, crafts, etc???

This is such a challenging topic and it really gets to the core of some of my own deeper thought processes, issues, and neurosis. I'm sorry for being so wishy-washy on this topic...I struggle with it so much and feel so many insecurities about my own parenting/career issues that sometimes I don't know if I'm coming or going..

How is that for a crazy/neurotic post from someone who has argued this thread like gangbusters??

kris

[mommax3]

I know I don't have it all figured out, but I am okay about that -- like I said earlier, it was very freeing a few years ago when I realized that I only had to know what was right for my family and didn't have to prove how my way was best for every other woman on the planet. I also realized that it is okay if I change my mind at some point, and I have also taken a much more fluid approach to the work I may end up doing and how much time I may spend doing it.

My life (like all of your lives) is more nuts than the lives of most people I know because of Travis' schedule -- I will NEVER be able to be absolutely sure that he won't get called in, unless we are out of town on vacation. Because most people don't understand the lives of physicians (and the complications contained therein) I decided during residency that I only had to answer to my husband and to myself. Right about that time, I was offered a part-time job totally out of the blue that was tailor-made for me and extremely flexible. I have never been happier than that year I was working part-time, teaching privately out of my home, and taking care of my kids, almost single-handedly. I felt better about myself as a person, had more to talk about with my husband, and we had more money to use for sitters and dinners out, as well as for fun stuff with the kids. That year changed my life because all of the sudden the work/stay home thing was not just black and white anymore -- there are all sorts of shades of gray in there. I see more possibilities in my future than I ever dreamed or imagined.

I tend to see things in seasons, and right now I am in a kind of boring, labor-intensive season of life, with incredibly precious and fleeting moments of sweetness that I am so glad I'm not missing. As much as I may occasionally envy moms who participate in "live" conversations with other adults in a professional setting on a daily basis --- I ache for them even more for what they are missing, or what they think they are missing. I think that comes from being the one that the mommies asked about their baby's day --- they would literally inhale their children when they got home from work. So resentment doesn't really enter the picture for me. If I heard a mom denigrating moms who stay home, the "ache" I describe above would probably deteriorate into more of a condescending type of pity, but I think a lot of times comments are made on both sides in order to make people feel better about their own choices and I would probably just chalk it up to that.

Sally

Holy Cow !!!! I just sat here for the last 45 minutes or so reading everything that has been written and thinking about all of your comments! It is a great topic!!!

Okay ... where to even start ... growing up my mother stayed home with the children until my little brother was in first grade and then she went to work full-time. My mom had a great flexible job that if ever we were involved in anything at school, my mom took off from work and was there. I don't remember her ever missing anything. I also had a huge advantage because my grandmother lived next door and I have a wonderful relationship with her. As I was growing up I thought that was the ideal solution and what I wanted to do ... stay home with the kids until they were all in school and then go to work. HOWEVER .... my views started changing gradually and I don't think that is what I will do in the future.

When we had our first child, I quit my well-paying job to stay home while my poor husband went to school full-time and worked 30 hours a week to make ends meet. It was the decision we wanted to make and where we both felt I needed to be. Money became a real issue though and I have found myself over the years working at home to help make ends meet.

Sue ... I could totally relate to your post way back I think on page two somewhere about working at home. I don't know if this is benefiting my kids either. I spend too much time working on the computer and they end up either watching too much television, playing too much Nintendo or being on their own that I feel very guilty. I have tried to work when they either aren't here or are sleeping but during the summer especially that has been almost impossible. I feel guilty. I would love to quit many times and yet ... I don't have the money to. I am not talking extra money to do fun things ... I am talking about the bare necessities and trying to have a little extra money to be able to let my kids play on a soccer team or take piano lessons.

I find that, like Kris, I thought I was very tolerant on this subject but I do find I have strong opinions about it. I watched a little girl for all four years of medical school while her mom worked full-time and dad went to medical school. I had this girl 12 hours a day Monday through Friday from the time she was two years old until she went to school full-time. Of course this girl's parents loved her but .... I don't think they had her best interests at heart. I really struggled with this because this family had decided that they did not want to live the "poor" medical student lifestyle. They still took out the maximum amount of loans they could get when she was making $60,000 a year. They bought brand new vehicles and everything was top of the line. I must admit part of me was jealous ... they had all the "stuff" that I wish we could have some day. BUT ... look what she missed! I don't think she even realizes what she has missed yet and for what .... They still have the same amount of loans that I do!

Sue made a comment that all parents have their children's best interests at heart. I don't think that is necessarily true. Of course, we all do! Unfortunately, our society has gotten to a point where children are left on their own too much and not given that strong family foundation. Sometimes I think I get too busy with all the activities we are involved in and that I lose sight of what is really important. It is easy to get caught up in the world of status. It is hard to be a SAHM in that respect. It isn't glamorous and there aren't always the tangible benefits of staying at home.

I have a son going into middle school this year. I have been getting more and more nervous thinking about it. I am sure he will be fine but I am amazed at how some of his classmates are already behaving. There is a rebelliousness that I saw when I would visit the fifth grade class. I don't remember kids being so rebellious that young. I would never presume to say that it was because their mom's work 8O but I know a lot of these kids are free to do what they want when they want. When Jacob had his sex education film that was supposed to be for the fifth graders and their parents, four mothers came to be with their daughters and only a couple of men came to be with their sons. My husband was really surprised and disappointed. That is just one example.

I think there are many parents who are trying to make it all work and do their very best. That is all we can do. It is hard to balance everything. I struggle with it almost on a daily basis. Unfortunately, I do think there are too many parents who have lost sight of the importance of raising our children well and keeping our families strong. It is a much different world that our children have to grow up in than we did and I feel that I need to be home or available as much as possible for my children. There are great teachers out there and others that make a huge impression on our kids. I am very grateful to them. But ... there are also those that don't. They have to have that strong foundation in the beginning to be able to make the correct decisions when they are on their own.

Okay ... it is after midnight now and I have to go to bed ... Besides I am rambling all over the place and not sure I am making much of a point that hasn't already been stated before. I will write more later. Thanks for making me think (even this late at night!)

Robin

[SueC]

Yikes--did I say ALL parents have their kids' best interests at heart??? Well, maybe not all of them! Hopefully most of them, though! I think maybe sometimes people think they have their children's interests at heart but get confused in the process.
I also have to confess that whenever someone I know tells me they plan to stay home with their kids--I'm secretly a little glad. I don't know if it is because I feel like it validates my own desire to be home with my kids or what but I suppose even though I try to be politically correct and respectful of other people's choices, there is a little part of me that leans more towards the stay at home decision. Sorry to be so wishy washy!
Also, Robin--thank you for commenting on post about working at home. Not that I'm happy that you feel guilty too but I guess it is nice to know that I'm not alone!
Darn--is it 1am and I'm here again? I should be working but I keep finding reasons to do anything but that!

[houseelf]

Wowsa!!!!

My comment was meant to spur on conversation about how we see other's lives as more together/glamorous/fulfilling than our own. Motherhood was meant to serve as just one vivid example of coming to terms with our own perceptions of ourselves through the lives of others.
But since the conversation took root at a much deeper level, I have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed reading every post herein. I have to say, however, that I won't touch some of these comments with a ten foot pole!

Because I feel incredibly close to many of you full time mothers or SAHM (BTW--which term do you prefer?), I have to say that it is fantastic that you have made such peace with your decision and that you are living your dream. If I have ever, and Kris please speak freely, denigrated such choice, even subconciously, please forgive me.

I also would like to add that competitive childrearing isn't just SAHM vs. non-SAHM...The possibilities for dragging each other down are endless. Even though I'm classified as a "working" mom, I regrettably must confess that I have questioned, at least internally, other women's commitment to their children when they are on the high powered career track. Mea Culpa. Yeah, because I've got this whole thing figured out.

I will say that in my case, part-time employment really seems to be working out for us, for whatever reason. I make a nice salary, have some personal fulfillment, and feel recharged when I'm at home. However, one case of the sniffles and I just *know* that it is all my fault because my son was exposed to some virus because I wasn't there. Bad, bad mommy!!! I think that some psychologist could spend hours sifting through my own brand of mommy guilt.

Part of the problem, imho, is that there is not a whole lot of realistic options for parents. Two weeks paternity leave? Three months maternity leave? Very, very limited part-time, job sharing, opportunities? Please, where do our values lie? Let's get real. Hopefully, society and employers will embrace these opportunities so that individuals can preserve their credentials and still be committed to parenting. I see a whole generation of female (and some male) workers advocating for these options. Part of the problem with this whole "debate" (although I believe that there is a whole lot of personal justification going on out there, myself included), is that as Robin, Sally, and Sue observed, there is a continum of "working", from watching someone elses' child, working from home, part-time, and full time. Yet we all clamor to classify and compare ourselves. Imagine what we could do if we all just got over ourselves and advocated for better career with parenthood options for all individuals. It is the classic British strategy: Divide and Conquer. We women pull each other down a hell of a lot more than any remaining sexist idealogical remnants out there.

Kelly

[PrincessFiona]

wow

It's amazing to me that this topic has generated so much discussion and thought. I find myself really having to look at myself and my decisions and it is really very good for me.

One thing I know for sure, like many of us...I don't have it all figured out...I think that the journey of motherhood that I have experienced has been full of all kinds of twist and turns...at different times in my life as a mother, different things have 'fit' for us. I know that when my youngest was born staying at home was a really wonderful,fulfilling time and it was something that I chose because I really wanted it. After my daughter was born it became harder because we had just moved from N. Ireland to the US and I had no friends or any type of support system at all...To top it off, my parents had just gotten a messy divorce and I was overwhelmed by those issues. Thomas was an intern..again (he had to start all over when we came to the US) and so stepping out and taking a class or two a semester was almost a life saver. I did feel the obligatory guilt 8) but it was a chance for me to take control of my life again. When I was pregnant with Alex, we'd lived in PA for 2 years and I had a group of friends...I quit taking classes and enjoyed the pregnancy, friendships, etc. Staying at home felt natural again and I was able to really enjoy it. Once we moved to Florida though, I sunk into that same hole...lonliness, feeling overwhelmed with the 'single parent' lifestyle...and so I went back to school again. The first year was a breeze...I went part-time and even took a distance learning class through Iowa State during the summer...just enough to fulfill a need to do something outside of nurturing/parenting/mothering. I felt really happy..the happiest I had felt in a long time...the last year was full-time though and it was tough. Part of the reason that it was so hard is that I was under an incredible amount of pressure to get research results and as hard as I tried they just weren't coming...I found myself going into the lab at 10 at night and working until 2 in the morning...was totally exhausted and stressed...had to concern myself with coursework, lab politics and a thesis...and wished I had never started the project in the first place. I only finished because it had cost so much money in loans to get to that point...My decision to finish superceded my children and my husband's needs during that time. In hindsight, I can say that it wasn't the best decision for the family.

Staying at home when we moved again to MN didn't work for me very well...again I faced the no friends, no support system and I went from being too busy to not busy enough. My first year here I really fell in a hole and I have no doubt that my children would have been better off at after school care than with depressed mom... Things are much better now, and I also attribute that to having the opportunity to teach that lab class when Alex was in preschool. Getting out and doing something for me makes me feel motivated and happeri.

I can see that life flows in cycles and that our decisions aren't really...black and white. There were times in my life that getting out and doing something for me really saved my sanity and made me a better mom and there were times when I was good at being at home. It has depended a lot on the circumstances in my life and my needs and the needs of my family at those times. It is very difficult to be a 'good' mom if you are feeling lonely, isolated, depressed and frustrated....and I think a woman has to do what she needs to in order to take care of herself..so that she can be a good mom.

I say that, but I will also stand by the idea that a surgical resident working 120 hours a week can't be an outstanding mom...and I'm sorry if that sounds bitchy..I do think that Rapunzel had a point about where we draw the line. I can't say that someone who chooses that lifestyle is thinking in the best interests of their family..and maybe I only feel that way because I see the effect of this kind of a residency when dad is the surgeon and mom is at home struggling. I know that dads that stay at home are a rare valuable commodity and so I guess I do feel like we have to draw a line where we put the needs of our children before our own. Where exactly that line is though I'm less sure of. I have a neighbor who works full-time (40 hours a week) and her children do great... they are really happy, well-adjusted kids. Mom is fulfilled, they have more money, and the kids are doing well. I don't think I draw the line at the 40 hour mark.

Someone here mentioned feeling guilty about working from home...DONT. You know, I think our children also need to feel that we have lives too...that not everything revolves around them and their needs. I think it is good for children to see their parents working towards a goal or at providing additional income. It is also good for them to understand that at times Mom or Dad has to take care of something and they need to wait. To the person hiring a sitter for the afternoon... I bet your kids look forward to it and it eases your stress in getting the work done! My kids absolutely love it when we have a babysitter come over or they get to go to the Friday night out thing during the school year at the local gym.

kris

Is it too late to add my 2 cents worth?

My mother worked full time as a pharmacist in Vietnam. It was not very common (perhaps even rare for women then) to even finish high school much less college and professional schooling. My 5 brothers and sisters and I had nannies accompany us everywhere. After the war and we moved to the States my mom's pharmacy degree meant zilch and she ended up working full-time in factory jobs along with my dad to put food on the table. I was then pretty much raised by my sisters and brothers. There were no other options except perhaps welfare which my parents were either too proud or ignorant (not in a bad way) to explore.

When I chose to stay at home with my children, I could tell that my mom was a bit disappointed but I figured it was partly because perhaps she thought that I had disapproved of her choice to work. But I totally don't resent her working at all whether she had been a pharmacist or a lowly factory worker. Of course over time she climbed up considerably on the job totem pole as she furthered her education and became a Medical Technologist until she retired. Whether she remained a factory worker or a pharmacist is irrelevant to me in the event that some people might think that "having to work" is different from "wanting to work." Either way she wouldn't have been at-home with me.

As a mother, even though others changed my diapers and took me to school, she taught me very important lessons which included the importance of working hard, getting an education and not letting setbacks keep you from doing your best in life. She taught me values, love of God, and respect for myself and others. When I became a mother it was only natural for me to stay home because of the values she had instilled in me. And I still my my college degree and a sense of being able to do what I want to do whether it was to work or not.

So it is my opinion that while on the one hand I do think staying at home with your children is ideal in an ideal world, I don't think it is always perfect or a cure-all for society. I've seen SAHM moms raising some real brats and some children with working moms who are perfectly behaved. I think it is really important for children to have someone always be available to them physically and emotionally whether it be mom or dad or grandma. And I am partial to relatives because they have more vested in the children. But sometimes even children from the worse possible circumstances (no parents, no real home, nothing) make great achievements and succeed. And we've seen children from "perfect" wealthy successful families end up in jail or on drugs. Just yesterday I saw the great-grandson of the Estee Lauder fortune arrested as he was a serial rapist.

[Meenah]

I know I have said before that I really don't care what others think, and my kids are now grown so my choices are a done deal. BUT I have to ask if we are talking about "medical families" only. We can work our butts off, gain debt, etc but we really do know that things will get better. How about the ones who don't have our education level/earning ability. They work their butts off and know it will never get better. How can we judge the mother who works for minimum wage (just as her spouse does) that she SHOULD stay home. Isn't that just a little arrogant? I can tell you I know people like this and their kids are just as good/successful as those who had a SAHM. I think it comes back to women supporting their sisters in their choices. Sometimes choices really aren't choices at all, especially if you want your children to go to bed with a full stomach.
Luanne

[Meenah]

I didn't mean to sound "holier than thou". Who started this thread anyway!!!! Welcome back Thu Van, nice to hear from you!!!!!!!!!
Luanne

[SueC]

Good point Luanne!
Hey Thu Van, are you back from TX?

[mommax3]

I agree with you, Luanne. There is no way I would be at home if I had married, say, a teacher. It is a noble profession, but the pay stinks. The choices we have are luxuries, even though we tend to agonize over them.


Sally

[PrincessFiona]

working moms

How can we judge the mother who works for minimum wage (just as her spouse does) that she SHOULD stay home. Isn't that just a little arrogant?

I don't think you are being holier than though and I do think it would be arrogant to presume that in a family where two parents work for minimum wage that someone should stay HOME!

I just wish that we could all be more supportive of women and their needs. There is an idea that as a woman if we can find a way to sacrifice and stay at home we should...and that is very noble. But maybe it is also arrogant to assume that if a woman is in a financial position to be able to make sacrifices and stay home that she has to. Should a woman be denied the opportunity to work in a field that she finds fulfilling or challenging...something that excites here just because she chose to marry someone who is financially more secure than her neighbor?

I of course don't know the answers to any of these questions, which is why I'm so wishy washy....

I recently talked to our neighbor from PA (residency) who was really a great help to me during those years. She is much older than I am (she is retiring in 1 year) and she told me:

I spent the first 20 some odd years of my life getting an education and discovering who I was and the next 20 years or so raising a family and dealing with all of the issues that come along with that. Then, after my husband left, I spent the next twenty some-odd years working. Now I'm getting ready to retire.

I told her that now she can spend the next 20 some odd years taking care of her needs and doing all of the things that she always wanted to do or thought she would do but couldn't. She laughed and told me that as a nurse, she sees every day how people her age begin deterioriating 8O . She didn't feel that she would take those classes, travel...do the things that she had always planned on doing at one phase in her life or another, which I found very sad.

She said that you have to take the opportunities when they are there for you and be happy in the present...not look to the future.

It was sad in a way to me to hear this...but also very moving. Whatever choices that we make now...to stay at home, go back to work, go to school.....we have to quit worrying about what other people think or other people will say...we have to find happiness within ourselves.

kris

What an interesting conversation. I was thinking about one thing though. Most of the posts have to do with moms and their choices. What about the dads? What is the definition of a "full time dad"? And how does that balance with the moms choices to work/work part time/stay at home?

[SueC]

First of all, Lunatic--that is such a heartbreaking story! I can see why you are still angry to this day. Isn't it amazing that children wouldn't necessarily tell you when something like that is going on? My sister and I (only 12 months apart) had a bad daycare experience as kids and we never told our parents until we were adults. It just never occured to us that that was something they would need to know about. We were about 3 and 4 at the time.
Also, I wonder too if dads agonize as much over their choices in life that we do. I know my husband sometimes worries that he made a mistake by choosing such a demanding field. Of course, when he started the process he was young and unmarried so he wasn't necessarily thinking of how it would affect the family that didn't exist yet!
At any rate, it has been pretty interesting to read everyone's thoughts on this subject.