Planning a career with children in mind

[pstone]

Have to say, I am mad at the idea that a home is easy now with modern devices...

I thought it would be a breaze too, but I was way wrong. Sure, it is sometimes mindless, and playing with the little boy can be beyond boring but I do my 'share' of the work at home. Which means since DW is working 80 hours a week I work as hard as I freaking can to do everything else.

The reason we are all feeling this way is because "PEOPLE" think it is not a full time job, that you just sit around and the vacuum does it for you.

I often joke that "mediocrity is my mantra". Perhaps excellence in either realm means that there are no other possibilities.

How is THAT for a downer thought?

I think that some of this comes back to the medical career "hogging" some of the resources.....

[houseelf]

Hmmm...What is a failure (when it comes to raising our kids)? This is a question that ruminates in my mind constantly. Most unfortunately, a single innoculation ceases to exist that can prevent heartache in regards to the outcomes in the kids.

Jennifer, Peter, Allison, et. al., I certainly agree with you that the majority of childrearing can not, and should not, be outsourced 100% (or even 50%). This is a dangerous proposition, even under the best of circumstances. The task, as Jennifer says, is just too enormous. This is one of those touchy subjects in which the sides have far more in common than they do different, yet the fusion of emotions prevents any sort of real agreement.

Still, I have a hard time accepting the proposition that full-time parenting is the exclusive method to guarantee good outcomes for our children. (Perhaps you all are currently thinking that I'm emotionally invested beyond the normal boundaries of friendly debating. You are correct, my children are my life and I can think of no greater hell than failing them.)

What confounds this issue is the fact that currently the definition of "working parent" and "SAHP" is teeming with thousands of variations. To be sure, I know very few SAHPs who do not either supplement the family income or volunteer within the community on a regular basis. On the other side, I know very few WOTH parents who haven't made at least a modicum of changes in their professional paths to accomodate the needs of the family. The continum of variations is broad and ever changing.

What strikes a chord within me is the belief that only full time and exclusive at home parenting creates optimal outcomes. First, there is a plethora of statistical data which negates this premise. But on an anecdotal level, we all know families where everything was done in the "right" manner and yet the outcomes were less than hoped for.

Personally, if there was a guaranteed path of success for raising my children, I would move heaven and hell to get myself on it. My children are my life's greatest passion.

My point to all of this, and yes there is a point, is to be careful in our assumptions. As I have stated in the past, I think that parenthood is given a lot of lip service without a lot of real respect. I think that people underestimate the need of a primary parent who is almost completely available. The current system sets parents up to fail on both sides of the fence (again whatever that oversimplificaton of "the proverbial fence" means).

Kelly


[/i]

[pstone]

If I raise them and fail I will at least know I did my best, if I pay someone or let someone else do it I could not live with myself.

It is not rocket surgery here, I love him, I try to act how I want him to act. I learn everyday how to be slightly better at it tomorrow then I was today. I see myself being calmer, more loving. I read books to see what other people say help in raising good kids, emotionlly secure kids.

No other person will do what I am doing for my boy. I will make mistakes for sure, he will learn bad habits from me for sure but I will admit my faults, my mistakes and my shortcommings so he can be a better man then me.

Might he fail? not if I have an ounce of energy left in my body. I am not a stay at home dad, I am a full time parent. Sure the house could be cleaner and the yard better taken care off, but he gets my attention and when he is alseep I often ask myself how I can be better when he wakes up.

And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of
Children."

And he said:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit,
not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you
with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that
is stable.

-- Kahlil Gibran

I work hard because it is my child.

[spotty_dog]

However, caring for a home is not necessarily a full time job in this age of time saving technology, and children become less dependent over time. I also feel called to give back to society in some more broad reaching way in addition to raising excellent citizens.

Ummmm, actually I think that the first part of this statement is wildly incorrect. I spend over 8 hours everyday parenting and taking care of my home and life in general. Actually, it's more like 12 hours/day. That more than qualifies my work as a full-time job.

I just bolded what I feel was a carefully chosen word in that sentence. The time spent keeping house depends heavily on a person's standards, the amount of work they give themselves (choosing to keep a kitchen garden for example or mend their own clothing), and the labor intensiveness of the methods they choose to get the work done.

For example, I very much enjoy scrubbing my tub weekly with a homemade baking soda cleanser, washing my floors on my knees, and cooking meals from scratch including baking my own bread. However when time is constrained I *can* choose to spritz a no-scrub cleanser, Swiffer my floor, and make food from commercial ingredients like bought pasta sauce -- all in a tiny fraction of the time needed for labor intensive methods.

Therefore, I sometimes feel selfish for choosing the time-consuming method of keeping house, and/or feel that the decision to be a full time homemaker (especially if raising kids isn't part of the equation) is a poor use of my time and energy and intellect as resources.

I think that the best way to "give back to society" is by raising the future members of that society.

Absolutely. I tried to address this vital need by mentioning that raising excellent citizens (and by raising I do generally mean taking a personal hand in fulfilling all of their emotional, physical, social and intellectual needs as the primary caregiver) is one way to "give back". But because my husband and I have already chosen to limit ourselves to two biologic children IF we can reproduce at all (for reasons I've elaborated already here so poorly as to engender your dislike of me), I want to make a wider impact -- and I feel, rationally or not, that limiting my attention to my own offspring might be selfish of me as well.

In fact,

I also go above and beyond the norm for our present culture by choosing to teach my own children rather than entrusting them to the care of strangers 35+ hours/week having faith that those strangers will teach them what they need to know - in the face of the fact that many, if not most, of children in these situations do NOT learn what they need to know (which is obvious if we look at the wonderful American education system and its results).

This is actually a driving force for me now. I've been concerned about the educational system since I first started thinking about becoming a mother. But only recently did I become convinced that, whether or not I choose to put my own kids in the flawed public school system, I could make a very real and very positive impact on the lives of a heckuva lot of kids by working from within that flawed system.

[Sheherezade]

This is fun. I guess I should have put this in the debate forum.

Alison makes a valid point; the amount of work at home (housekeeping) depends on choice and personal preference. I would add that the amount of work involved in parenting also depends on personal preference. If I chose to homeschool my children, I would be booked. I like my public school system. I think it does a great job with my kids. I am heavily involved to ensure that impression is correct. Volunteering within the school system has been my contribution to their formal education. This year, they are both gone for 6 hours of the day. Perhaps 2 of those days I will be in the school in some capacity. I also do work on school curriculum and organizations via PTO and school board. I could increase these activities; it seems many women like me advance towards working on the school board or heading up the PTO (basically a small corporation in this town). I think this does benefit all the children in town. It is a "takes a village" approach to education --which is fine if you like your village. Given a different set of circumstances, I might choose differently. Other parents have suggested to me that my "overinvolvement" might be harmful to them in the long run (ie the "helicopter" parent). Possible - but I am doing what I believe best for them at this time. I think Kelly is right that we all have more common ground than we know. I also think that life with toddlers and infants is completely different than life with school aged kids. Parenting changes. It has to be more hands off to let them learn to self direct; still, you must be there to catch them if they fall.

Enough about my kids. Back to me When you add volunteering into the mix of my activities, life gets pretty busy. Still, I would have 3 days a week to myself from 9-2:30. Given I'm a slovenly housekeeper, that is a lot of time. I could step up my standards at home - but I don't want that. (That's the problem!! ) What do you do to meaningfully fill that time besides volunteering? When you add in my chosen school involvement, I'm down to 16.5 hours a week during daylight hours. (And I completely agree with Nellie that the rat b***tard medical spouse hours and unpredictability play heavily into the constraints......) Obviously, I "work" before and after 9-5 hours (like all the WOTH parents out there!) so I could just consider this "me" time and devote it to exercise, hobbies, remodelling our house and the like. Somehow, that seems indulgent. Is it just me?

[DCJenn]

You know this is an issue that we all struggle with from time to time. OK, maybe not 100% of us- but for those who for whatever reason aren't always thrilled at their daily options.

(and no Jenn P. spending time on yourself sound like something you've earned. Go guilt free to the gym.)

I'm home, I miss work. I wouldn't have missed this time with Nikolai for any job. But that doesn't mean that I don't miss my job, and everything that I did with it. (or at least a job, not necessarily one specific job). I get an enormous amount of satisfaction from being home with him. He's learning new stuff everyday. Cool. But am I meant to be home with him forever? Did becoming a parent mean that I have given up my professional life (and yes, Jenn S. your profession is parenting, and you're damned good at it, I'm guessing) that I've struggled for years to get to? Maybe the internal struggle comes from having had that professional pat on the back. Maybe I need external reinforcement to beleive that I'm actually doing something. I don't know. I know that it certainly means more to me to hear someone else compliment me on Nikolai than knowing it myself. Does that make me insecure, or just human.

I think that once again, we should accept that for some of us, becoming a parent has required a significant shift in professional aspirations. Willing or not. The fact is that I'm 38 years old and have been a parent for 4 months. That means that I have 23 years in a paying job behind me. Hello- talk about a ginormous change in behavior! 23 years vs. 4 months. Which has been the most rewarding? Emotionally? being at home with Nikolai. Intellectually? Oh, lord, give me a conversation with a total stranger on an airplane. Any airplane. Financially? I don't like it one bit that there's only one breadwinner and it's not me. Nope. That (as Peter has said so eloquently before) packs a whallop in the old self-esteem arena. I have no money unless my husband goes to work. ewwww, my Gloria Gaynor backup singing angel on my shoulder slaps my upside my head...

So, the point, (and I think I have one) to this vomit of my own issues is that it's not accepting that there are only one or two right answers, it's accepting that no matter that we have chosen the right answer for our families at any given time, there's never a guarantee that we'll always like it. and we all want to be right all the time. or right enough to feel good enough all of the time.

Jenn

[Vanquisher]

I think the thing we are forgetting here is that there is no one best method for everyone. I personally feel that the best caregiver for a child is the one who shows them love in a calm environment that meets their developmental and other needs. Whether this environment is in the home or not is dependent upon the specific household.

In my house, I am a stay-at-home parent. My primary focus is making sure my kids are happy and healthy, loved and nurtured, educated and prepared. My primary focus is not the laundry or the dishes or sewing or the countless other minutia that I could spend hours upon hours doing while plopping the kids in front of the elctronic babysitter.

I'm not saying that I never use the t.v. I do. I think there is some great educational programming available, and I use it as a supplement when I need a shower, or to get something else done that can't be accomplished during nap time (when I can get her to take one).

The problem comes when parents do not interact with their children, and leave them to be raised by the television or not at all. Focusing too much energy on household tasks is misplaced time, IMO.

Of course, I hate cleaning. It is the absolute worst part of my job. I hate it with a deep seated passion. Laundry is the absolute worst of it. I do it, but I don't necessarily do it well. I also expect dh to pitch in in this regard when he is able. After all, he may have a very demanding job, but I think it is bull crap that every detail of the house be dropped upon me. That isn't my job either, and I didn't sign up for it. I signed up to be the caretaker of the children, not the maid. I know some people disagree with this and think being the maid is part of the duty. Bull!

On the other side of the coin, there are children who flourish in day care. Sometimes parents are not the best primary caregivers. It takes a lot of time, patience, and other qualities that some parents can give in small doses, but can not give day in and day out. They are not able to nurture their children the way the need to be. Not to mention that if they are not happy in their lives, that has a direct effect on their children. Stay at home parents who are resentful of the fact that they stay at home, who are not happy, do not make a happy home. It is better for the children to be in a warm, happy, and loving environment for a few hours with their parents, and the rest of the day with someone else, then to be miserable at home sharing little quality time, but lots of quantity.

That said, it bothers me when people say that they need a dual income to make it work and that one parent can not stay home because of financial reasons. I beg to differ. If you want it, it can be done. We did it on $1000 a month in college. We lived in a crappy apartment, and had one very old car, but it can be done. Both dh and I were in school full-time, and he had a full-time job to boot, and I watched our baby most of the time, and we traded him off between classes. I don't find money to be a valid excuse, but it's one people use all the time because they don't want to say that the day care is a solution that works the best for their house.

Some people should just not be parents, but that is a different issue altogether.

I really think that very, very few people have it all. You have to sacrifice somewhere. I don't think it's possible to be the best parent you can be, and the best career person either.

At home parents should be compensated, at least in some way for the work that they do. Staying at home for the first years should not derail a career. Unfortunately, it is most often what happens, but it shouldn't. I really think though, that you just can not have it all.

I wish me now could talk to me back then and let me know this...

[Vanquisher]

Oh, I forgot to add that I had a job interview to do medical transcription from home yesterday. I will do it part time (about 15 hours per week), and work on it when DD is sleeping.

I hope this will be a good arrangement for us.

My FIL said to me, well, that will be good. At least you'll have something to do during the day.

I could have clocked him. Instead I gave him the evilest look I could think of in my mind.

Jerk! Sometimes I wish my dh would call people up and tell them how hard I work so they will stop feeling sorry for him, and start feeling sorry for me. :>

[PrincessFiona]

I think that the best way to "give back to society" is by raising the future members of that society. Civilization would crumble within a generation or two without those who work to raise future generations. I can't think of anything I could do that would have more far-reaching implications on the future of humanity than raising my children to be wonderful human beings and have them, in turn, teach their children what I have taught them. That's a legacy I would only be lucky to get as an architect or lawyer. And, even then, buildings eventually fall down and history forgets most.

That's an unfair generalization. Great teachers leave legacies that impact generations. Great doctors and nurses impact public health/world health and education that impacts generations. Social workers impact family cycles and generations. Researchers impact generations. I could go on and on...the world needs us all in very important ways. Society would crumble just as quickly. People can feel just as passionately about their "callings" outside of parenthood as well. This might be hard to imagine if you've never experienced it. Balance is a challenge, but not impossible. I don't think working part time makes me any less of a mother, but a mother rich in experience and love for humanity to share with my daughter. I don't think it's a matter of luck to make an impact, but a matter of *passion* that spills over and benefits both sides of the fence.

I agree...and that is where finding that balance as a mom/person becomes so difficult...at least for me! I do feel that we make an impact on society by raising our children well (or at least by not doing a really bad job!) but striking a balance between a professional life and parenting is something that is extremely difficult...at least for me!

For the last 3 years all I did was lab prep and teach a lab section. I thought I found the 'ideal' job because I didn't have to be away from home much when my children were home. The reality, though, was that even when I was at home I was busy preparing for class/grading papers, etc. Usually, this was at the expense of sleeping. I was so busy during the day with the kids that I often didn't get to start prearing until after bedtime for them.....so I'd spend some time with Thomas and then be up into the wee hours of the night trying to get things done.

Things in the lab also always take longer than you would think and my "2 hour" trips on the w/e always turned into 5 hours...which cut into family time.

Honesly, I'm so relieved not to be teaching again starting next week! I'm so glad not to have to go back...and yet...I still crave that nobel prize winning career I have spent all summer looking into distance learning opportunities or mapping out potential jobs

There are no easy answers, I guess.

Angie, back to the original question.....I don't know if you can plan your career with children in mind but rather modify as time goes by. Other circumstances can also make us re-think things (medical training, perhaps?). I really felt like we had a great thing going with the research fellowship. It was a great segment of time for our family, to have another child, for work I was doing, etc. And then residency started up again and we moved! This last year I haven't been working at all and, in the big picture of things, that has been a tremendous blessing because it freed up time for me to devote to two family situations that occurred over the last year (which, by the way, I think proved more distracting and detrimental to my parenting that any job I've had).

My cousin has a PhD in a non-science field but has some similiarties to your situation. She finished her coursework and some of the dissertation before having children and then finished it at a slower pace. She realizes that working as a professor is not going to fit with what they want for their family. Her area of interest is one that really fits best or only within an academic framework. She lives in a city with many colleges and has been able to find work teaching a course or two a semester. It's frustrating because the pay is so low, especially given the amount of work she is doing. And it is the entry level or required courses which also brings with it some apathetic students. BUT, she is glad to have done it and get more teaching experience. The acutal teaching hours work out very well for her. I'm not sure it that would interest you but I just thought of the similarity of your situations.

And, this has been a thought-provoking post and I have "answered" it in my head about a dozen times. It's pretty much a constant issue for me. Over the summer, I have been researching and planning out a business idea with someone who turned out to be an absolute flake. I'm glad to know sooner than later but it's been really disappointing. It's something that I have to have help with otherwise I would just go it alone. I feel like I am back to the drawing board and also looking at the possibility of moving in less than 2 years and it's hard to invest in a whole lot with that clock ticking. I think hobbies, exercise, etc is not terribly indulgent at all. But this is from someone who has bees, is getting chickens and has taken up running. Go ahead, indulge!

[Sheherezade]

I agree that everyone adapts after kids. Honestly, that part of life is fun if I look at it in the right perspective. I enjoy trying new things. It's the "race" part of life that doesn't fit well with parenting. It definitely slows down advancement for most people --well, at least me. I was raised with this gung ho "get to the top" attitude. It served me well before I got off track. Maybe that's why I find encountering these "family friendly" careers so disturbing. I have this crazy idea that if I had picked a different path, kids wouldn't have slowed me down. It reminds me of that last scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark III with the room full of grails : "She chose poorly......"
It is oddly comforting to know we all have to slow down advancement when we have kids.

I think some people have the wrong idea about my complaining. I *love* doing science. I *love* being at home with my kids. What I don't like is that the two are mutually exclusive. I'm very happy with my current situation. I just want more. I suppose I should take the "You can't have it all - at least at the same time" mantra to heart. I keep trying to figure out how I can have it all without letting work or parenting suffer. I know this isn't possible for many. That thinking always leads me to "Why isn't this possible? And how can we make it possible? " Which leads me to work hours......and viola! You have my disjointed post about the state of society!!

Nellie -- too bad about your business. I remember you mentioning it offhand somewhere. I was anxious to hear what you had going. I'm sure something else (or someone else) will come along in time. Was it something you could move when you move?

Was it something you could move when you move?

No, and that was one of the drawbacks. However, I had mostly decided that if I got a successful business going, that would mean staying here. I would also be able to start up something similar depending on where we moved (advantage of knowledge of the business, disadvantage of starting parts from scratch). You'd think I would have learned from my state specific consulting work in Denver. Nope! I could probably really work at it and get something similar going here, or really try to keep up with connections in Denver, but the move provided a graceful exit.

[Vishenka69]

What do you not see here? Children. ... I am just not ready. I told him on Saturday that at this point, I don't want to be moving to a new town for a residency where we know NOBODY, trying to find a reasonably palatable, well-paying job in a career field I don't like, buy a house, and put up with his stress and unavailability while pregnant or with a toddler. He slowly processed all of that, and I finished by stating, "That is too much to ask of me."

As soon as we know where we are going, I am willing to get pregnant. Prior to that, no. I will have to work because of our existing debt, and to ask me to hold down a full-time job AND full-time Mom AND housefrau? Sucka please.

I could have written that. I'm also not too crazy about my job in Finance but it pays well (which really helped when DH was in med school) and we really need that now. We will also move in about 1.5-2 years and I can't even begin to imagine how I would handle the move and the renovations while being pregnant on top of a demanding full time job.

[bony00]

This discussion has been great. I am finishing up a PhD and also getting ready to give birth anytime now. My mother in law is coming up from Trinidad to help us with the baby for a couple of months and during that time I will be working intensely on finishing up my dissertation. After my mother in law returns home, our little girl will be going to the day care at least a couple of days per week. I haven't had the baby as yet and I guess that one really cannot anticipate how one would feel. But this is the plan for now.

I have a post doctoral fellowship lined up for the fall and one of the reasons I decided to do a post doc is that the hours are flexible, I can work at home if I have too and I can still be productive and develop a research niche for myself.

I do intend to pursue an academic career. This may not take off at a top research institution. Perhaps I will have to start off at an institution where there is more hard money, but I definitely want to have an academic research career. Something has to give a little.

I grew up in Trinidad and my mother worked as a teacher. I started school earlier than usual. All of my friend's mothers worked. The culture is different though, having a helper, someone to do the cleaning etc is quite common and not as costly as it is here in the US.

This concept of being a stay at home mom is a bit difficult for me. Don't get me wrong, staying at home and taking care of the house and entertaining the children is very demanding. Is it our expectation of having super kids really driving this stay at home mom situation? Is it really about us or our children? I don't know the answer to these questions. Also in other countries, policy is so much more supportive of family than it is here in the US. In Canada maternity leave is significantly longer than it is here in the US and the mother receives a certain percentage of their salaries.

Anyway, I am reading a book "Perfect Madness: Motherhood in the Age of Anxiety" by Judith Warner. This addresses some of the issues brought up in our discussion.
Enough of my rambling.