College graduation and earning a living

[PrincessFiona]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

Seriously folks...back when WE went to college, tuition was much less than it is today. I didn't pay more than $50/credit hour for in-state tuition. Today that has tripled....and salaries haven't gone up.

There is a teacher that lives here who only has a very small house because her parents footed the down payment and help out from time-to-time. It's nothing luxurious...and she just gets by.

The bottom line is that the cost of college and therefore the amount of student loans has gone UP and salaries have remained the same or gone down in some industries. Add to that that more employers aren't offering health insurance coverage or good health insurance coverage....

I don't think most people are just spoiled and looking for that fab lifestyle. An undergraduate degree used to be a ticket to a good-paying job with benefits...often that is not the case anymore. Some parents are helping their children by letting them move back in and save money....others are helping out by sending cash....and some aren't helping.....

We plan on financing most of our children's undergraduate educations for them.

kris

[locumtenenswife]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

I agree with Kris, that a majority of the people who graduated from high school before 1995 who went back home to live after getting their degree were just doing their best to save money and make ends meet.

In the blue-collar community of Los Angeles where I'm from, cost of living is outrageous. A one bedroom, one bath apartment goes for $1100 in a safe part of town. A two bedroom, two bath, 950 sq ft. condo goes for $360,000. Average starting income for a college graduate in Los Angeles $36,000, which after taxes translates to $2138 take home per month.

My friends and I who moved back home after graduation weren't slackers and we weren't living expensive lifestyles. We we were from immigrant, working class families, and we knew the value of a dollar. Our parents sacrificed so much for us when we were growing up, but we weren't spoiled. I got my first car when I was 17, a 5 year old Hyundai hatchback with a bad tranny that my dad bought for $500, and I drove that car for over 100,000 miles. We all had full time career-track jobs right out of school, we all drove the same cars we had in high school, we didn't live off our credit cards or rack up debt by overspending, we didn't have expensive cell phones, big screen TV's or pottery barn furniture. We were all just trying to pay down our student loans and save enough money to buy homes of our own. And because both my parents were laid off from their jobs and lost their retirement benefits, I was also trying to help my parents out financially at the same time.

Two of us moved out after living at home for 2 years, and ended up buying condos on our own before we were 28 years old. My other friend moved to San Francisco for her career and then to Manhattan, New York for a promotion. I realize now that if I hadn't moved home for those two years after college, I would have not been able to save the $25,000 that it took to pay off my student loans and allow me to buy a place of my own.

There's a big difference between helping out your children and just giving them a handout. Now that I'm married and a housewife, I hope my children will learn the same lessons I did about hard work and saving money, even if it means they need to live at home for a year or two after college to manage.

[Flynn]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

I dunno. I think having your grown children move back home ultimately communicates that you don't believe they can make it. It confirms their fears about not being able to hack it in the big world. I would gently say it's time to fly little bird. I know it's going to be difficult and frightening, but I KNOW that you can do it. I KNOW that you don't need me to carry you on my shoulders anymore. You father and I very proud of you...and we've changed the locks. :>

I think it really depends on the reason for the return. I don't think it was wrong or out of line in my case. We all knew it was a temporary arrangement. We simply had a very hard time looking for an apartment and a new job from 1000 miles away and this was the best we could come up with. Living in NYC decimated our savings in a way that med school has not. We couldn't afford to fly back and forth.

I agree with the above.

Honestly I really think it depends on the kid and the philosophy of the family.

Some kids will take a paid college education, move home for 6 months and never ask for another dime after they've saved enough to pay to live on their own.

Some kids will take advantage of that situation and then some. It depends. I don't think parents should sacrifice their retirement for a child's education. That's just not a smart move -- but if education is something they are willing to give to their children (loan free), they can do it without a problem, and the child takes advantage of the gift in a healthy way -- go for it.

My parents believe education is EXTREMELY important. We were not a "rich" family but definitely upper middle class. Unlike my friends however, I was taught the value of a dollar and if I wanted the extra expensive cool clothes, I had to pitch in. They were reasonable, not stingy, but I learned a lot from them as far as need verses want with regard to money.

They saved for education in the hopes that my sibs and I would want graduate degrees FROM MY BIRTH. I've never had any debt until I married DH.

My parents took care of tuition and modest living expenses while I was in school and I got jobs to supplement. Consumer debt would never have occured to me. You never charge something unless you can pay for it in full. I was taught the purpose for a credit card was for emergencies and to build a positive credit history. That's how I was raised and (although I laugh about it now) to abuse a credit card and get myself in trouble would have felt like stealing. I would NEVER have done it at any age.

I was on my own after college and then decided I wanted to go back to school. My parents supported my choice and financed it. I lived just off campus in a modest apartment the second time around. I pushed hard to get done quickly to minimize living expenses. I moved into my parent's home to student teach and stayed a little less than a year there. It was a good arrangement and yes, we all knew it was temporary.

I'm sure some of you are going to but I didn't pay rent or have a curfew. We talked about it and decided against it. I didn't abuse the situation, felt very fortunate, and it worked out really well for everyone.

I'm not saying my situation would work for everyone but there are young people living at home temporarily who really will get a leg up from the experience and NOT abuse a parent's generosity.

There is a fine line between entitlement and struggling for the sake of struggling.

Re: College graduation and earning a living

This all comes down to one word: RESPECT.

Respect needs to come from both the parents AND the child. I see nothing wrong in an adult child moving back home in an effort to be financially responsible. Paying down debt and planning for the future is a good thing. But the adult child needs to be respectful of the parents and help out around the house, make meals, buy groceries, basically find ways to contribute to the family. Moving home just because you want to be taken care of is not respectful to your parents or self.

I think this is the key. And I think there are 2 very different groups being discussed. There truly are kids who move back home to live with an adult paycheck and no overhead. If they're looking to live at Hotel Mommy, have their laundry done and every meal paid for (except when they go out with their friends) - that's a problem. Then there are people who move back home with a goal in mind, carry their own weight, and are perfectly reasonable.

I'd be open to my kids living with us for awhile after graduation - with reasonable expectation set, of course.

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

This all comes down to one word: RESPECT.

Respect needs to come from both the parents AND the child. I see nothing wrong in an adult child moving back home in an effort to be financially responsible. Paying down debt and planning for the future is a good thing. But the adult child needs to be respectful of the parents and help out around the house, make meals, buy groceries, basically find ways to contribute to the family. Moving home just because you want to be taken care of is not respectful to your parents or self.

I think this is the key. And I think there are 2 very different groups being discussed. There truly are kids who move back home to live with an adult paycheck and no overhead. If they're looking to live at Hotel Mommy, have their laundry done and every meal paid for (except when they go out with their friends) - that's a problem. Then there are people who move back home with a goal in mind, carry their own weight, and are perfectly reasonable.

I'd be open to my kids living with us for awhile after graduation - with reasonable expectation set, of course.

The Hotel Mommy...too funny!!

It is about respect--for yourself and your parents. I have a three-year-old. Does anyone have a 100% sure-fire way to ensure that I instill this?

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

Abigail, I think we lived parallel lives. . . . I took the city bus to/from my job at a restaurant and took a full load every semester plus 30 hours/week working. I worked summers and took classes and graduated undergrad in 3.5 years.

Me, too! I didn't even own a car of my own (that is, not my DH's, for his daily commute) until I was 28! Throughout college, I just took the city bus. It never occurred to me to be a hardship, though. First, I didn't exactly run with the Greek sorority crowd--none of my friends had money, either. Second, there was no way I could have afforded a car (or, even if I could buy the auto, I could not have afforded the insurance or parking!). The bus was FREE to University of Texas at Austin students. Plus, I could study on the bus ride out to the 'burbs, where the law office was where I worked. So not having a car was better for me than having one. Then, my first job out of undergrad was teaching. I earned $20,500 a year. And my DH was in medical school. DH had a marginally operational truck, which need drove to the med campus every day. No car for me, and no money to buy one. So I hitched a ride every day with another teacher, and chipped in for gas. It was a great deal. Funny how things work out.

Re: College graduation and earning a living

I have a three-year-old. Does anyone have a 100% sure-fire way to ensure that I instill this?

Right. Except for Luanne, we're all talking out of our a$$es about how we'll be doing things. As though we know! What else about parenting has been predictable!!!???!!!

Re: College graduation and earning a living

Also, not all children are ready to leave the nest just because they hit their 18th birthday.

ITA, Tara. I was thinking about this last night and you summed it up.

In the case of my brother, he probably should have waited an extra year before starting *kindergarten*. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that. He really needed some extra time. Even though they didn't do a great job of ironing out the details (and would have avoided some problems that way), I think it helped him out quite a bit.

Re: College graduation and earning a living

He was back then too.
(Though again, that was a few weeks after my parents separated and he was having a tough time. And again, if he and my dad had worked out some ground rules, things would have been....different. Oh, the things that happened.)

[Liz2254]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

Weighing in here a little late... but wanted to share.

I didn't move back home after graduation to enjoy Hotel Mommy - in fact, I don't think I ever really lived at Hotel Mommy. I started doing my own laundry and chores at a very young age, and was always responsible for contributing to the household (I remember making dinner a couple nights a week since I was in the 4th grade - and there was a time when I thought my parents had me 8 years after my sister so they'd have someone to clean the kitchen when she moved out ).

Incidentally, one of the best lessons I had was in budgeting. I earned $100/mo allowance for everything - clothes, entertainment, stuff for school, shampoo, etc. It sounded like so much money to me at the time - but man did that require some budgeting. I had to really think if I wanted to go out to Subway for lunch with my friends or did I need to buy gas (for the car I bought with my own money).

Flash fwd to college graduation. I graduated with a degree in chemistry (that I finished in 3 years) and was having a really hard time finding a job. A really hard time. And I don't mean in that "I sent a resume out so I'm going to wait and see if that works out before I apply anywhere else" kind of way. I was sending out at least 50 resumes a week, went to the chemical society meeting (with a cooler because I wasn't going to waste money on eating out) and talked to anyone and eveyone I could - but I was from a small school no one had heard of, one so small they didn't have an HPLC, which is the most basic entry-level job you can get.

I grew up in one of those you're on your own households... so I was scared. Really scared. My mom had just died, I was just getting out of a really terrible relationship... and bless him, my dad let me move back home no questions. Of course there were expectations (like look for a job, clean out the house so he could sell it, etc.) but I don't know what I would have done without his help. He also was very patient with me and discussed the pros and cons of a couple offers (to live below poverty level in cities far, far away) and let me wait for the right offer. Which eventually came, 6 long months after graduation. I will never be able to tell him how much that time meant to me.

You're right, it comes down to respect on both sides of the equation. But I also think it's a mistake to think that kind of responsibilty just appears when you graduate - it's learned over time. I was not there because I was taking advantage and since so much of my upbringing was focused on independence and responsibility it's not even a conversation my dad and I needed to have at that point.

And as opinionated as I can be - I try not to judge becaue you really can never understand the factors in someone else's situation. The operative word being try.

[Flynn]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

I just had a conversation about this with my parents. One of my dad's sisters has two kids. They are smart, responsible, and good human beings.

My Aunt and her husband have the "once you move out have a nice life and keep in touch" philosophy. It's been a HUGE issue between them as a result. My aunt and uncle have really struggled to have adult relationships with their now adult children. There is a lot of resentment from the kids to the parents for various reasons.

My dad got into a conversation with my aunt about "helping" adult children. They both were shocked with eachother's responses. My cousins both have significant loans, graduated top in their class, have good jobs but can't afford a car. They CAN afford most other expenses though so they are doing "well" with regard to a lot of other college grads. They are doing a tiny bit better than scraping by. Buying a house is at least a decade away (they each would be over 35 by then).


My aunt insists they are "teaching" their kids that there is no free lunch. My dad argued her kids are respectful people, they don't expect a free lunch, but having a kid 50,000 dollars in debt at 23 isn't so much a learning experience but a HUGE liability. It's like she never had considered it that way before...

My parents kept their kids on their medical insurancy until we were 26 or had good jobs with benefits. That's what their insurance allowed and they were happy to do it. My aunt was . My dad's point, health is not a chip to bargain with. If a child was in a car accident with no insurance where could they turn? Parents. Covering us was a small way to have piece of mind for all in involved at a small cost to the parents. Granted, my parents financial situation allowed them to do this without a problem -- but so could my aunt and uncle. It's as if they are in total denial of how different the world is now verses when they were young and just out of college. They got married right away and had TWO incomes. (They had forgotten that significant fact.) They were able to afford a house in four years -- my cousins will be lucky if they can do that in ten. Do my aunt and uncle need a reality check or what?

My female cousin (age 25) is now struggling to pay for getting her wisdom teeth out (her parents didn't think it was necessary when she was younger) and while she has medical insurance, she has no dental -- yet. She has to pay for it out of pocket. My dad encouraged my aunt to pay for it and give her kid a break. Her daughter would MORE than appreciate it and it's something they could do without batting an eye.

Parenting is SUCH a slippery slope. I see how my cousin looks when she talks about her parents and I try not to cringe. She has so much resentment at their inflexibility about certain subjects. It hurts her when she works VERY hard to stay independent, something comes up like wisdom teeth, and she's barely getting by. Meanwhile her parents shrug, tell her it will work out, and book another trip to Mexico. I just don't get it. Am I missing something here?

[poky]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

It's as if they are in total denial of how different the world is now verses when they were young and just out of college. They got married right away and had TWO incomes. (They had forgotten that significant fact.) They were able to afford a house in four years -- my cousins will be lucky if they can do that in ten. Do my aunt and uncle need a reality check or what?

Hmmm...probably. Of course, it isn't really the fact that they graduated from college so long ago, because what you describe there is *exactly* what I did (married right out of college, two incomes, bought a house with DH 4 years after graduation)..and that house was bought less than 10 years ago. I think the "two good incomes" thing is a *huge* factor; we've had enough income to live below our means and be comfortable, so we saved a lot. I haven't borrowed or gotten *any* money or help of any other kind from my parents since I graduated and started working full-time (with one week in-between). I also worked part-time all through college, which didn't even really pay my rent. My parents covered tuition/books/etc., and let me live in the basement the first two summers (when I was in the dorms and not in an apartment), so I didn't rack up too much debt, for which I am eternally and profoundly grateful. I know just how lucky I've been.

I agree with what's been said in the rest of this thread, though, that it's all about respect, and your cousins seem to be being treated as if they were *not* respectful, when they are, and since they're struggling, that makes it tough. This is kind of a crude question, but maybe it's a different way of looking at it - Are your aunt and uncle trying to use up all their money on themselves before they die, or do they just prefer that the kids get it all after they're gone, when they probably won't need it as badly? It doesn't sound like their kids are the type to expect more and more help once they've gotten a little boost up, but maybe that's what they're afraid of?

One of the profoundest parts, I thought, of Sicko, which I just watched this weekend, was the observation that corporations want employees who are in debt to their eyeballs and who can't leave (or risk being fired by rocking the boat) without losing their health insurance and/or defaulting on their loans. And it's true; even after I had no debt, knowing that I'd have to change doctors and my coverage would probably be worse was just about the only thing that kept me at my job, at times (well, that and inertia).

[Vishenka69]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

Obviously there are many situations where moving back home is simply necessary, but I think what prompted Lily to start this thread and what a number of us have a hard time understanding is when college graduates with good jobs move back home because it's just the easiest thing to do. Or never move out after securing good jobs.

I just don't see how anyone can learn to be independent and fiscally responsible while living with their parents throughout their 20s-30s.

[Flynn]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

Obviously there are many situations where moving back home is simply necessary, but I think what prompted Lily to start this thread and what a number of us have a hard time understanding is when college graduates with good jobs move back home because it's just the easiest thing to do. Or never move out after securing good jobs.

I generally agree with these statements.

I do believe however that a temporary stay with a high level of respect on both sides can help a recent grad a great deal. Every situation is different.

Do I think that living at home indefinitely or with no plan is an option --- HECK no.

[houseelf]

Re: College graduation and earning a living

I know several people who moved home after college and didn't pay rent.

A friend saved money for a year to afford a down payment for a house and paid down his student loans. He is now happily married and a ballistic expert for a large city police force.

My brother struggled a LOT in college. Eventually, he transferred to the local college because he wanted to quit college entirely but my mom talked him into trying to take classes from home. He eventually earned two degrees in EE and computer science while working twenty hours a week at an engineering firm. It was REALLY important to my mom that we earn degrees, come rook or crook. If she had to let him come home to facilitate this, so be it. After college, my brother spent an additional year at home "just working" as opposed to working and being a student before moving out to another city for a new job. It was very regenerative for him. Knowing my mom, I'm sure that he did not pay rent. He is now a Senior Executive at Microsoft.

Additionally, I lived at home the last two years of law school. It kind of sucked to be home with mommy after being on my own for so long, but I owe about $20,000 less in student loans today. We worked it out so that we have a better relationship today. I didn't have a curfew or pay rent. In fact, I mostly lived with Sean during this time. (For the record, he spent one year at home while pursuing his Masters' Degree).

I just don't think that there is a hard and fast rule on this one. It could go either way. I think that Tara hit the nail on the head, it is about R-E-S-P-E-C-T. If Mom is making your bed and furnishing beer funds after the degree, that is one thing. If a young adult needs time to regroup, pay off some debt or save up some cash for a goal, that is called "team work" and "family".

Kelly