For all you surgeon spouses out there

[MissCrabette]

Oh, my! What did I start here? I never meant for this to be a debate. I just thought it was a funny one-liner.
I'm hijacking my own thread here.
I think it's interesting how things have changed over the years on the forum. Back when I joined, members were openly discouraging others from pursuing surgery. I remember Cheri being the only one saying that her husband was happy doing neurosurgery and that she was happy to support him. People seemed to gravitate more towards Heidi's camp back then and maybe it's just me noticing this, but she seems to be by herself nowadays. Maybe it's just that we're trying to be nicer and more supportive and not voice all our frustrations with the system. Maybe it's because we get defensive of the path our spouses have chosen. Maybe the 80-hour week really did change things, although I doubt it. Who knows? All I know is that the reaction to a newbie saying his/her spouse is considering surgery is no longer "*groan* No, not that. Anything but surgery." That didn't always use to be the case.

Anyway, when I said that surgery was a difficult path to take, I didn't mean that I would discourage my DH from it if that's what truly made him happy. But can anyone really argue that someone who is really happy doing Family Medicine or Internal Medicine does not have a better lifestyle than a surgeon, no matter how much the surgeon loves operating? Should I go hide now?

[madeintaiwan]

But can anyone really argue that someone who is really happy doing Family Medicine or Internal Medicine does not have a better lifestyle than a surgeon, no matter how much the surgeon loves operating? Should I go hide now?

I don't know. Some of those guys work 12+ hour days (and for less pay). They take call too. FM's deliver babies. DH spoke with an ortho practice out west that takes NO CALL. Medicine is medicine. I don't really consider FM or IM to be cake specialties. PM&R on the other hand.... I really don't think you can truly compare "lifestyle." And I would still argue that for MY DH, ortho will ALWAYS be a better lifestyle than FM or IM because he hates those specialties and would be MISERABLE thus making our lifestyle miserable.

[Pollyanna]

But can anyone really argue that someone who is really happy doing Family Medicine or Internal Medicine does not have a better lifestyle than a surgeon, no matter how much the surgeon loves operating? Should I go hide now?

Absolutely I can argue that, but no need to go and hide Training in a surgery specialty will always max out (or go over) the 80 hour rule. It's just the nature of the beast. You can't scrub out because you're close to your work limit and after the surgery is over there are rounds, charts, etc to take care of. Medicine allows for a bit more flexibility during training but I still know plenty of medicine residents that max out the 80 hour rule.

When you are talking about lifestyle I assume that means during attendinghood (because there is no life in training). All jobs are different and all physicians are different. My hubby wants it all, full time physician and full time scientist. So while some MFM's will be making huge dollars doing ultrasound consults for 40 hours per week that will not be our reality. I know a psychiatrist that has been in practice for over 30 years and he still works more than 12 hours per day 6 days per week seeing patients. There is so much variability in THE JOB that I don't think you can safely say that someone in a surgery specialty will have a more difficult lifestyle than someone in medicine. There is also great variability in the individual physician. Some are looking to do shift type work and others will work 7 days per week even when they really don't have to.

In the end it is about creating the life and family you want as a couple, no matter what specialty the doc chooses.

[Vanquisher]

I still say that the whole "he loves his job" argument is crap. I love my husband, but I could give a flying fig if he loves his job. You know what? A lot of people don't like their jobs. When my husband is on his death bed, I doubt he'll be saying, "if only I could have worked more." Yes, he loves to operate. Yes, he loves surgey. Yes, he would not have been as happy being in another specialty, BUT if he could go back and pick again, he would have picked something on the ROAD. I don't care what anyone says. There ARE lifestyle specialties. PERIOD.

Granted, our training life has been HELL to put it mildly. Our residency has been brutal.

We, his family, are more important than his job. I am just not one of those "stand by your man" no matter the cost kind of gals. The cost has been huge. It has cost us a half million dollars (that is no overstatement), our mental health, the health of our marriage, and so many other things.

Screw the supportive bent. Stay away from surgery. I like being a loner these days anyway.

[spotty_dog]

Oh, my! What did I start here? I never meant for this to be a debate. I just thought it was a funny one-liner.

I think maybe it's a bit too close to home to be funny? I kinda still don't get the joke. I think mostly it's poignant -- the surgery resident wishes he saw his new wife more and/or that he had made a different choice as an MS-3?

As for the rest, I don't know enough about the breadth of residency and attendinghood experiences to weigh in.

[Flynn]

All I know is that the reaction to a newbie saying his/her spouse is considering surgery is no longer "*groan* No, not that. Anything but surgery." That didn't always use to be the case.

For me, the newbies here are so new and there are so MANY of them I'll wait a bit to say " NO NOT THAT." There is no need for me to engage when there is a boyfriend who is an MS3 who really likes surgery. I don't have that much time on my hands right now.

I'd also like to point out that I was (and still am in certain situations) pretty bitter about training. I dripped venom about medicine. What I've learned though is that my kids were young enough when we were done to not even remember Daddy missing stuff. This is a HUGE plus in my favor right now -- three years post training. Dad is around now. Dad KNOWS his kids. Our kids have a GREAT life. I'm extremely happy and feel very blessed in this regard.

If I had older children (during training) I think it would have been a whole new layer of bitterness for me. I think I would have been twice as jaded (if that was possible). Screw me and that's one thing. Screw my kid and you've just made a bitter enemy. Many of "the most bitter" surgical spouses here (and I put myself in that category, I'm NOT throwing stones here) had or HAVE school age kids. Kids who KNOW Dad can't make it to ANY of their functions. These are the spouses who have to dry the tears and have YET another conversation that "yes, Dad/Mom loves you but their job doesn't give them much time...yadda yadda yadda." I never really had to do that.

Life's a crap shoot to a certain extent.

My story is for the most part "a happy ending." If I was Heidi right now I'd be in anger management courses.

[moonlight]

Oh gosh, I don't want to create a divide here, BUT back when DH was trying to decide on applying for med school or not I flat out told him I couldn't support him if he was going to sign up for some crazy long surgical residency. I know that sounds terrible. The truth is I love my time with him and I'm so very selfish about it. I had to be honest with him rather than holding in a grudge for a decade+. THANKFULLY my husband (even then) didn't have a strong desire for a surgical specialty. After his surgery rotation from hell- Q3, wasn't allowed to leave post call until 9pm, On Call Thanksgiving and Christmas, and top it off with the meanest and most unsupportive residents and attending imaginable... well let's just say the surgery door was closed.

Strangest thing about it- He ended up needing a LOR from them for residency applications because his IM LOR fell through last minute. It was one of the most glowing LOR. Most of his interviewers asked him if he was considering surgery. Strange...

[Pollyanna]

If I was Heidi right now I'd be in anger management courses.

I'd be in jail...

[Flynn]

I'd be in jail...

Okay I basically said this and then deleted it.
Now I can just say I AGREE!!!

[Flynn]

...as one of the "jaded surgery spouses here" I can chuckle at your experience (Moonlight) with regard to your DH's surgical rotations. MANY talented and brilliant young students are turned off by the vibe surgery gives out. My response to that is I'm happy he/she chose another path as only people who truly LOVE surgery from the top to the bottom can hack through all the crap that comes with it.

The experiences you mentioned (late nights, working holidays, balls to the walls attendings) wouldn't have bothered my DH at all. It might have encouraged him actually.

[moonlight]

...as one of the "jaded surgery spouses here" I can chuckle at your experience (Moonlight) with regard to your DH's surgical rotations. MANY talented and brilliant young students are turned off by the vibe surgery gives out. My response to that is I'm happy he/she chose another path as only people who truly LOVE surgery from the top to the bottom can hack through all the crap that comes with it.

The experiences you mentioned (late nights, working holidays, balls to the walls attendings) wouldn't have bothered my DH at all. It might have encouraged him actually.

Thank you for that acknowledgement! Although our training program has its issues, I'm grateful each and every day that DH went through that hell and was turned off by it. The rotation was two years ago and I'm still bitter about it. I didn't like the person he was while he was doing it and I didn't like the person I was at that time either. I give you mad props ladies for enduring it.

[Vanquisher]

Who says I am not posting from a cell? Okay, so there aren't any bars, but there are lovely padded walls.

Ha ha ha ha, heeee, hoooo, he, he, he



In all seriousness, having older kids does make a huge difference. Wiping the tears of a child who is definitely old enough to remember sucks! Living away from a support network makes a huge difference. Being in a residency program that is THE DEVIL makes a huge difference.

Back to my troll hole.

[NYCHoosier]

I'm definitely still a newbie who hasn't experience the hell that is ortho residency, but I'm just too independent myself to make any sort of demands when it came to DH choosing his specialty.
He didn't really get a say when I produced a play, applied to fashion school, booked my trip to India or signed up for the LSAT. And while he may not have been thrilled about any of those, he ultimately came around because this is my life. These are my passions. And, of course, it doesn't hurt that I'm working the job that pays for all of them.

Similarly, while I tried to encourage him to consider surgical specialties with supposedly better lifestyles (ophthalmology and otolaryngology), it was ultimately his choice of what he was going to be doing for the rest of his life. I'm too worried about reaching the end of my life and wishing I had been more ambitious or pursued certain things I wanted to pursue to pressure DH to do anything other than find his own passion. Also, when he was in a rotation he didn't like, he was obnoxious to be around. Better to have him around less often and in a better mood, imo.

Also probably helps that we don't have kids. Probably won't until after residency. I'm sure that makes and will continue to make a big difference. When DH is too busy for me, I hang out with friends or volunteer or organize something or go to a play, etc. I'd be much more pissed if he was missing dance recitals and baseball games.

[Vanquisher]

I'm definitely still a newbie who hasn't experience the hell that is ortho residency, but I'm just too independent myself to make any sort of demands when it came to DH choosing his specialty.
He didn't really get a say when I produced a play, applied to fashion school, booked my trip to India or signed up for the LSAT. And while he may not have been thrilled about any of those, he ultimately came around because this is my life. These are my passions. And, of course, it doesn't hurt that I'm working the job that pays for all of them.

Similarly, while I tried to encourage him to consider surgical specialties with supposedly better lifestyles (ophthalmology and otolaryngology), it was ultimately his choice of what he was going to be doing for the rest of his life. I'm too worried about reaching the end of my life and wishing I had been more ambitious or pursued certain things I wanted to pursue to pressure DH to do anything other than find his own passion. Also, when he was in a rotation he didn't like, he was obnoxious to be around. Better to have him around less often and in a better mood, imo.

Also probably helps that we don't have kids. Probably won't until after residency. I'm sure that makes and will continue to make a big difference. When DH is too busy for me, I hang out with friends or volunteer or organize something or go to a play, etc. I'd be much more pissed if he was missing dance recitals and baseball games.

Well, I definitely understand that mentality, but I have some thoughts. Take them for what they are worth to you, which may be absolutely nothing. First of all, he hasn't matched yet. Ortho is ultra competitive, and even THE BEST of applicants sometimes don't get in. Where you match is a crapshoot. You could match at a wonderful program, or one that you can search through my threads and try to figure out which one to avoid.

I am not being overly dramatic about it. I thought I was supporting dh in his dream was the best thing, but I was wrong. You don't know my whole story. A lot of the old timers here do through PMs and phone conversations and the like, and if you really want to know, I can tell you, but it is a sordid tale of woe and despair. I think a lot of them will tread lightly on my posts and some will be protective of me because I have been through the wringer this year. I never want to see another person go through what my family has gone through.

I am hyped up about this particular discussion because it has been so profound for me. I know that most people do not have the same experience as me, but I do know that residency sucked monkey before "the incident." All I can do is say that I hope that residency isn't as bad for you.

[madeintaiwan]

Who says I am not posting from a cell? Okay, so there aren't any bars, but there are lovely padded walls.

Ha ha ha ha, heeee, hoooo, he, he, he



In all seriousness, having older kids does make a huge difference. Wiping the tears of a child who is definitely old enough to remember sucks! Living away from a support network makes a huge difference. Being in a residency program that is THE DEVIL makes a huge difference.

Back to my troll hole.

Having older children does make a HUGE difference. Your program is the DEVIL. PERIOD. Knowing your experience, I am thankful every day for being at the program that we're at [even if it is one of the lowest paying programs in the country AND we have no family around]. I would definitely be rocking myself in a padded room somewhere.