For all you surgeon spouses out there

[SoonerTexan]

In all seriousness, having older kids does make a huge difference. Wiping the tears of a child who is definitely old enough to remember sucks!

Growing up as the son of a surgeon (though his father is not exclusively a surgeon) has been enough to vanquish any talk of going into it as a specialty someday down the road for DF. There are definitely some bad and disappointing memories there.

You ladies are very strong and I admire you for it

[NYCHoosier]

Well, I definitely understand that mentality, but I have some thoughts. Take them for what they are worth to you, which may be absolutely nothing. First of all, he hasn't matched yet. Ortho is ultra competitive, and even THE BEST of applicants sometimes don't get in. Where you match is a crapshoot. You could match at a wonderful program, or one that you can search through my threads and try to figure out which one to avoid.

I am not being overly dramatic about it. I thought I was supporting dh in his dream was the best thing, but I was wrong. You don't know my whole story. A lot of the old timers here do through PMs and phone conversations and the like, and if you really want to know, I can tell you, but it is a sordid tale of woe and despair. I think a lot of them will tread lightly on my posts and some will be protective of me because I have been through the wringer this year. I never want to see another person go through what my family has gone through.

I am hyped up about this particular discussion because it has been so profound for me. I know that most people do not have the same experience as me, but I do know that residency sucked monkey before "the incident." All I can do is say that I hope that residency isn't as bad for you.

I hope I didn't come across as judging you, because I'm definitely not (I can't tell if you think I was, but I thought I'd make that clear regardless). I just wanted to toss in my current perspective to the discussion.

I read your blog a year ago before the switch over, so I remember you having very valid complaints (can't remember specifics), but I'm guessing there's much more than I know or knew. I don't want to pry... already feel a little creepy for admitting to reading your blog. Yeah. But I know there's more there, so please don't think I'm disregarding your advice or wisdom from going through it.

Oh, and, yes, I realize that matching in ortho is not a given at all. DH is much more anxious about the "if" he matched Monday than Thursday Match Day. Based on the numbers and statistics and assuming he'll get to interview at at least 13 programs of myriad prestigious-levels, I'm pretty confident he will match. But I know the overall match rate for ortho is only 80% so we can't count on anything. I've also read those horror stories on orthogate of applicants with 250+ Step I scores, AOA, all Honors who rank 10+ programs and don't match. Anything is possible at this point.
But, we have gone through the choosing the specialty discussions. And they lasted months. And it was a very involved process. So, while his ultimate specialty is still unknown, I guess I was reflecting more on my thought process during the decision process.

[PrincessFiona]

jacking my own thread here.
I think it's interesting how things have changed over the years on the forum. Back when I joined, members were openly discouraging others from pursuing surgery. I remember Cheri being the only one saying that her husband was happy doing neurosurgery and that she was happy to support him. People seemed to gravitate more towards Heidi's camp back then and maybe it's just me noticing this, but she seems to be by herself nowadays.

Well, I'm going to come out here with my own opinions. Feel free to disagree with me, but here it is.

I believe the reason for your perception is due to a few things:

1. Many of the surgery spouses that you met when you joined have finished training and are trying hard to sort out post-training lives. They are less active on the open boards and life is better for them than during training before...but they aren't as open about it anymore because:

2. It got to a point that if you complained about your residency program you were put down as being not good enough, strong enough, positive enough, too negative, etc. People stopped posting about the violations and problems in more open areas. In addition, we have lost many girlfriends and fiancees of surgery residents to relationship break-ups as well as a few resident spouses to divorce. The really truly unfunny joke about surgical residency is the one told to us by a no longer active no longer surgical spouse member...her husband overheard two surgeons talking in the changing room about their "starter wives and trophy wives". Surgery does seem to have a disproportionate number of men who move on to their second wives after residency. It seems that the sacrifices and challenges of living hand-to-mouth and single-handedly trying to raise children over the years while completely giving up your own career goals can cause a gal to get bitter...and instead of working through it, plenty of these guys find their trophy wives, and move on.

3. Residency and Fellowship is different than being a medical student or being an attending wife. Also, your experience is directly related to the program that you end up in. Medical students don't usually have to do illegal q2 call with the resident. They just have to put up with the nastiness that comes from it. If your program is more family-friendly, like Mayo, you may experience a much better compliance to the 80 hour work/week or a more amicable work environment. That can make a huge difference.

My husband is in a non-surgical specialty. At his fellowship program, he was required to take Q2 call for 2 years. It was not in-house, but meant that he drove back and forth to the hospital constantly (and we could only afford one clunker at that time. We had one car for the first 8 years of our marriage due to finances.) There were nights where he was so exhausted (but had research to do) that he slept while I got up every hour, went to our bathroom, removed rats who had died from some pseudomonas infection from their cages, counted them, recorded the number on them, slapped them into baggies and put them in our freezer. EGADS. Yah...rock on.

I know personally two other spouses with husband's in the same specialty for whom fellowship was the proverbial "cake walk". 9-5. They never understood how hard those years were for me.

So it depends on someone's experience and perspective...

Surgery residents in many programs still work well over the 80 hours/week for 5 years minimum. It might be all champagne and orgasms years after training, but if you have to give up your career, your family, friends and support system to help support someone else's dream it might seem a little less glamorous at the end of the day. Again, this is very program specific and also depends on the dreams/goals that a spouse might have for themselves.

Also...this is not directed at anyone. I'm speaking for myself mostly.

I just think that it is important to respect what the surgery spouses go through even if you aren't going through it yourself. I imagine that a few surg spouses are scratching their heads and having some WTF moments about this thread. It's also probably the reason that we old-timers are looked down on as the crusty, bitter women and men that we are

Being independent, btw, is a great thing and will serve surgery spouses well...unless the surgery residency takes you away from your ability to continue to independently live your dreams for many years. I would argue that most surg spouses here are very independent women.

[Phoebe]

After being out-of-training 6 years and being your this board for years and years, this is my generalized take on residency (and fellowship)......

Residency sucks- pre-80 hour rule/post 80 rule. Whatever specialty, residency sucks. Yes, some specialities are more stringent than others. Surgery being one of those. If you are lucky and/or the best you can match into a non-malignant and if you are lucky family-friendly program. Some months during residency suck more than others. Your SO is away from you or your kids. Your SO is stressed and sleep-deprived. Medical training is taxing on a family, physically, emotionally, and financially.

Your SO still loves what he/she does. You want to support him/her career aspirations. Depending on your circumstances, you do your best to get through trying to find/create happiness amongst the stressful moments (Thanks Kris for iMSN). Your family emerges in the end tired and worn out, but excited to have reached this phase in your life. It takes a while to feel normal again and maybe get to know your spouse again.

This could be putting it mildly or exaggerating somewhat depending on your story. We all do the best we can. Somedays it may not seem worth it and other days you are reminded of just why your family went through all this. Hopefully, you are lucky enough to see more happy moments than stressful ones.

ETA: Sorry Kris, I cross-posted with you.

[SuzySunshine]

I will say that we are very lucky to be at the program we are at, other then that I'll stay out of the discussion

[Flynn]

Being independent, btw, is a great thing and will serve surgery spouses well...unless the surgery residency takes you away from your ability to continue to independently live your dreams for many years. I would argue that most surg spouses here are very independent women.

I totally agree with what Kris said but the above statement TOTALLY hit home for me.

[Rapunzel]

Kris summerized my understanding of things quite well.

But, I will add that even the "cakewalk" residencies and fellowships can be grueling - *if* you have a spouse that adds on a whole lot of "stuff" (presentations at conferences, research, moonlighting, etc.).

Between residency and fellowship and now attendinghood my life has changed in only one way - financially. That could be viewed as great - or (if you know the details) - it could be viewed as not so great.

It's a complex issue.

[Flynn]

Kris summerized my understanding of things quite well.

But, I will add that even the "cakewalk" residencies and fellowships can be grueling - *if* you have a spouse that adds on a whole lot of "stuff" (presentations at conferences, research, moonlighting, etc.).

Between residency and fellowship and now attendinghood my life has changed in only one way - financially. That could be viewed as great - or (if you know the details) - it could be viewed as not so great.

It's a complex issue.

Well said.