Safe sex

[houseelf]

Hmm. I'm going to tiptoe in as well to offer a respectful counterpoint to the abstinence advice. Obviously, waiting as long as possible is in everyone's best interest to ensure maturity, safety, emotional readiness.

Nonetheless, I don't want sex and marriage to be paired up as the only acceptable route. You don't have to get married to be successful in life. Sex is ok outside of marriage. It is a fun, healthy, and consenting adults can enjoy it as one of many ways to enhance their relationships. Abstinence as the paramount goal with birth control offered as a consolation prize sets kids up to feel like failures or sluts or engage in secret or subversive behavior. Human sexuality is a part of healthy development. Some of the messages that get tied into the abstinence before marriage ideal aren't part of healthy self-esteem or relationships. I applaud Heidi for tackling this proactively. I'm sure she's not endorsing it "hey, son hit that!"

I think talking to kids about sex, birth control, waiting as long as humanly possible, the danger of porn, mysogyny, respect, consent, and maintaining healthy relationships are far more important topics to cover.

[bokelley]

+1

[SoonerTexan]

Abstinence as the paramount goal with birth control offered as a consolation prize sets kids up to feel like failures or sluts or engage in secret or subversive behavior.

Oh man, I have avoided this thread, but I have to offer a respectful counterpoint to this.

This is not my experience. It is not my siblings' experience. Sex within a marriage was the only option presented to me by my parents...and where they succeeded is giving me great reasons as to why. I'm not talking about, "your life will be ruined if you get pregnant" or "STDS are an awful, awful thing." Actually, those subjects never came up--they knew we weren't stupid. We were taught sex was a special, powerful experience worthy of great respect. Something that could be abused and have negative consequences, but also something amazing that was beautiful and meant for marriage. They never shamed me. The abstinence only education I received through High School Ministry never shamed me. It taught me to approach sex with great respect and mindfulness to my own dignity and the dignity of my partner.

I bristle a little bit when I read, "I want them to wait, but teens ya know..." I feel like that isn't giving teens enough credit. DH and I dated SIX YEARS and stayed virgins until our wedding night. We had PLENTY of opportunities to have sex if we wanted to--it wasn't a matter of constant supervision. It was DAMN HARD and we certainly struggled, but we believed what we were waiting for was worth it...and it absolutely is. I lost my virginity to a man I loved deeply and who had hours before committed his life to me in front of our family and closest friends. It was awkward and a little painful, but there was so much trust, no regrets, and no doubts. And it has only gotten better and better. I don't want any other experience for my own children, and while it is ultimately their choice and out of my control, I hope I can express to them the beauty and worthiness of waiting.

My goal here isn't to shame other choices...but I don't think you hear my viewpoint much anymore. I'm not a fool. I know I'm a minority, but I feel it needs to be said that teens are capable of waiting...but why will they if you don't give them a reason to?

[civilspouse]

Hmm. I'm going to tiptoe in as well to offer a respectful counterpoint to the abstinence advice. Obviously, waiting as long as possible is in everyone's best interest to ensure maturity, safety, emotional readiness.

Nonetheless, I don't want sex and marriage to be paired up as the only acceptable route. You don't have to get married to be successful in life. Sex is ok outside of marriage. It is a fun, healthy, and consenting adults can enjoy it as one of many ways to enhance their relationships. Abstinence as the paramount goal with birth control offered as a consolation prize sets kids up to feel like failures or sluts or engage in secret or subversive behavior. Human sexuality is a part of healthy development. Some of the messages that get tied into the abstinence before marriage ideal aren't part of healthy self-esteem or relationships. I applaud Heidi for tackling this proactively. I'm sure she's not endorsing it "hey, son hit that!"

I think talking to kids about sex, birth control, waiting as long as humanly possible, the danger of porn, mysogyny, respect, consent, and maintaining healthy relationships are far more important topics to cover.

Agreed. While I think you make a great point ST it hasn't been my experience that abstinence is presented that way. I got the message that sex is dirty, sinful, and can have terrible consequences. If I'm being honest I still struggle with these things. I wanted to wait till marriage and DH respectfully waited while we dated for 5 years. Looking back I wish we hadn't waited mostly because I did it for the wrong reasons. I hope to have a more open conversation with our kids like Heidi. If they wait till marriage fine but really I just want them to make smart decisions. If they choose not to wait that's fine as long as they are thinking about what they are doing and why.



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[SoonerTexan]

While I think you make a great point ST it hasn't been my experience that abstinence is presented that way. I got the message that sex is dirty, sinful, and can have terrible consequences.

You're absolutely right. That isn't what we were taught at all. We were taught it is great, awesome, and something to be enjoyed and celebrated in addition to respected. Actually, some of you may have heard of the book, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"--it's advocates more of a courtship approach to dating...lest one be tempted to sin. My mom hated that book She believed that shaming kids or giving strict boundaries of contact was just stupid...teaching respect for sex and willingness to wait (and understanding of why it was important) was the way to go--based on the idea that abstaining should be out of respect and dignity for your partner and that same respect and dignity is just as important when a marriage and sexual relationship begins.

Abstinence as the paramount goal with birth control offered as a consolation prize sets kids up to feel like failures or sluts or engage in secret or subversive behavior.

Actually, Kelly, I thought about this a little more and on some level I agree with you. To me it reads like something akin to, "I'd prefer you study for the test, but if you feel you need to cheat, here are the answers." What is the point of even saying it is better to wait when your actions are saying "I don't think you can and/or will do it." There are other things about this that bother me, but I'm not going into them right now. My main point is teaching Abstinence only isn't a recipe for 100% failure and not necessarily a backwards, shameful, and naive way of viewing sex. I certainly know that is the perspective, though.

I know this is different than a whole other perspective that I'm not addressing at all--when sexual relationships are actively encouraged. That's a whole 'nother topic.

[Vanquisher]

Safe sex

I don't want my kid to jump into sex right now, but I 100% want him to have sex before marriage. I'm happy and glad it works for some to wait, but it's not my perspective.

Sex is a vital part of a healthy relationship, and I want my kids to have great, healthy relationships before a lifelong commitment. I just want sex to wait a while.

I agree with Kelly that you don't have to be married to be happy. I obviously hope my kids get married and give me a couple grandkids someday, but mostly, I want them to be happy and healthy. I don't want my kid to marry too quickly or the wrong person because of a need to bang someone.

Plus, I don't think virginity is some perfect thing. Sex is awesome, fun, and I think a couple different turns on different merry-go-rounds is a-okay.

I also don't believe in God or sin, so there's that.

[Vanquisher]

Also, sex shaming is not what I want. At. All.

Having been raped at 13-years-old and feeling dirty, shameful, and unworthy, I spent the next 5-6 years sleeping with guys to try to feel love and be unbroken. It wasn't until I met Chad, that his love started to heal me, and we could have a healthy sexual relationship that I was able to ditch those feelings.

Also, a lot of men/women aren't going to wait for marriage for sex, and I think it's a silly thing to wait for marriage for if its going to ruin your possible best match?

If my hubby had wanted to wait, he'd probably not be my hubby, and vice versa. It's too important a part of a relationship, IMO, to not know what you're getting in to.


Heidi

[SoonerTexan]

I disagree, but I doubt you are surprised I had a healthy relationship for 6 years before having sex. It is not a necessity. I also don't buy that you have to take a spin to make sure it is going to be enjoyable. Sure this in n=1 here, but I know I'm not the only one here with that experience. I think there is also something to be said for not having something to compare to. And good communication and trust goes a longggg way.

And I know I will get hell for this, but if someone wants to wait (regardless of reason, even non religious) and a potential partner is not willing to wait, that implies a lack of respect in a relationship to me. Sex is never 100% safe and requiring someone to take the risk of STD or pregnancy outside of marriage in order to continue a relationship? I don't find that acceptable.

You know what is interesting? My 25 year old sister has said she is treated like a pariah when (certain) friends find out she IS waiting. She was telling me a few days ago it is just easier not to bring it up.

I know you are doing what you think is best, Heidi. I don't doubt that at all. You are a kickass mom who cares deeply about your kids. And I am totally with you on the sex shaming part of this all. I am not on board with that.

However I HATE that experiences like
mine are never heard or deemed unrealistic. There is a stereotype out there that keeps getting perpetuated and it isn't necessarily true.

[MsSassyBaskets]

I disagree, but I doubt you are surprised I had a healthy relationship for 6 years before having sex. It is not a necessity. I also don't buy that you have to take a spin to make sure it is going to be enjoyable. Sure this in n=1 here, but I know I'm not the only one here with that experience. I think there is also something to be said for not having something to compare to. And good communication and trust goes a longggg way.

And I know I will get hell for this, but if someone wants to wait (regardless of reason, even non religious) and a potential partner is not willing to wait, that implies a lack of respect in a relationship to me. Sex is never 100% safe and requiring someone to take the risk of STD or pregnancy outside of marriage in order to continue a relationship? I don't find that acceptable.

You know what is interesting? My 25 year old sister has said she is treated like a pariah when (certain) friends find out she IS waiting. She was telling me a few days ago it is just easier not to bring it up.

I know you are doing what you think is best, Heidi. I don't doubt that at all. You are a kickass mom who cares deeply about your kids. And I am totally with you on the sex shaming part of this all. I am not on board with that.

However I HATE that experiences like
mine are never heard or deemed unrealistic. There is a stereotype out there that keeps getting perpetuated and it isn't necessarily true.

ST, I don't think anyone is saying that your experience is impossible or wrong, but can't you recognize that what was right for you is not right for everyone? Your experience is a very narrowly prescribed personal ideal, and for others the definition of a healthy relationship and healthy sexuality is going to be drastically different. I built my very healthy relationship on many years of living together unmarried. Marriage was not the goal. A healthy relationship was, and that included sex. Marriage was simply a byproduct of that healthy relationship. I'm not saying that my experience is right for everyone, but it was certainly right for me, and I have no patience for being told it's the wrong way to do it.

[MsSassyBaskets]

Sorry, that came out way more bitchy than I intended. Not meant to sound so hostile. Just pointing out that abstinence before marriage is not what many people want, and often messages about "respecting" your partner by waiting sound like you think we're all just following our irresponsible urges, and that's simply not the case.

[PrincessFiona]

Marissa, I wish I had waited until marriage and that someone had given me that strong, positive, non-punitive message growing up. I have tried to give that message to my kids (but unfortunately my older 2 chose not to wait). My 16 year old wants to wait.


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[mommax3]

I just think that ST wants to point out that a healthy relationship does not *have* to include premarital sex, if that choice honors the beliefs of the people involved. I agree, and DH and I have strongly encouraged my boys to wait while also giving them all of the information they need should they choose not to wait (plus lots of anecdotal observations based on things DH encounters in his practice).


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[SoonerTexan]

I'll just stick to my previous posts.

I'm just saying that it frustrates me that as a society my experience is largely viewed as unrealistic or downright stupid or naive. My experience was not represented in this thread and I decided after a few days I wanted it to be there, mostly because I think few people believe it is realistic or healthy and it is.

Others have said that a vital part of any healthy romantic relationship is sex. I disagree. That was not my experience. That seems a rather narrow mindset as well, if mine is. I'm not really upset about that...just making a point.

Carry on, I know how the general opinion here does not jive with mine, but there it is for anyone that wants to read it. I'm not trying to personally insult anyone. But beyond this I think it is just beating a dead horse.

Edit: not breathing a dead horse!

[SoonerTexan]

Xposted with others

[alotofyarn]

I'm just chiming in to say that I'm glad you posted, [MENTION=1889]SoonerTexan[/MENTION]! Hubby and I didn't wait, neither for each other nor for marriage (though we had been dating for about 8 months or so when we did finally take that step). I wanted to, but my first boyfriend was pressuring me, and I felt like my mom gave me some bad advice, so I gave in. I wish I had been stronger. I wish we had waited, at least for each other, and the only way of knowing that we were saving ourselves for each other would have been to wait until after marriage.

FWIW, the advice my mom gave me was that she didn't wait, and it didn't ruin her life. True, it hasn't ruined my life, but I fully comprehend now that it's something that I can't take back, that it wasn't as meaningful with the first guy, that I'll always wish it had been with hubby first because it is special to me and I wish it was something that we only shared with each other.