breast feeding, test taking medical mom

[Rapunzel]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

I don't think we're giving mothers too much if we're making allowances for giving birth, breastfeeding, and sick kids.

This isn't about not allowing this woman to breast feed, it is about her pumping in the allotted break time. By all means, she can breast feed as long as she'd like but for two days she is going to have to make it work. I'm not anti-woman, just anti-stupidity. And not wanting her in my dh's program has nothing to do with her being a woman or a mother. It has to do with the fact that she thinks the world owes her a living (so to speak). If she was a man asking for special favors I would think the same way. I imagine she is the type of person that wants everyone to bend over backwards to accommodate her needs but she in now way will reciprocate.

Soooo.... Would you have a problem with me not reporting for jury duty because I breastfeed a young baby? Is that a special favor?

The last sentence there is, I guess, what I am seeing in a lot of these posts: "I imagine she is the type of person that wants everyone to bend over backwards to accommodate her needs but she in now way will reciprocate." And, it might be something you imagine. That imagining may be based upon something you or dh have already experienced or fear happening in the future. However, there is nothing to back this imaginary image up.

I guess when I was surprised at the hostility towards this woman - it was (and is) mostly because there seem to be attributes ascribed to her that just do not have any backing in the facts that we have. Do we know that she wants everyone to bend over backwards for her? Do we know she in no way will reciprocate those who help her out?

It's attitudes such as this that concern me. Partly because I will always - always - remember my dh flying home from a match interview at a prestigious program where the program director point-blank told my husband that they didn't want parents in their program (because of the above imaginings). This isn't just about a mom and breastfeeding. These are suppositions many in medicine make about ALL parents.

[Rapunzel]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

ETA: How funny that TRJenn and I are on complete opposite sides of this arguement.

[madeintaiwan]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

I just don't get it. Venom, hostility, anti-child, anti-parent, anti-woman? No one is saying she CAN'T breastfeed. No one is saying she can't PUMP during her test. She CAN pump, during her BREAKS (as in plural, not just one) which is no different than what 1,000s of other breastfeeding moms have to do every day that they go to work. And I'm sorry full boobs, mastitis whatever, for TWO days of her entire nursing life during a 8 hour test day, she can take three 15 minute breaks or one 45 minute break to relieve her boobs and be just fine. And according to the USMLE website, you get a MINIMUM of 45 minutes of break. You can instantly increase your minimum break time to 60 minutes by skipping the stupid 15 minute tutorial at the beginning of the test. Which she obviously doesn't need the tutorial since she's already taken the test once before. And according to the website you can take your breaks WHENEVER you want to. However the alloted time for the actual test will not change. DH had no problem finishing his test sections early and had plenty of extra break time. You're talking about apples, we're talking about oranges. I know we're not all gifted and what not but seriously DH (who went to a not ranked middle tier red headed step child to Wash U medical school) studied for Step2 for MAYBE 3 weeks and got a 258. She's a Harvard MD/PhD ( a school that is supposed to produce some of our country's finest) and has already taken the test once ( the second time I took my SATs I improved my score by over 300 points). She should have plenty of EXTRA break time to pump until her boobs are drained. Seriously, why don't we just start handing out test scores, degrees, and paychecks? Can you honestly sit there (judging and criticizing) and say there aren't people out there who do things that YOU find utterly stupid that just rub you the wrong way? I wish I could be that "perfect."

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

If she is a doctor first then I think Princess Fiona's husband (and, some of the other husbands here) that perhaps a woman (particularly a woman who wants children) should not be in medicine at all. And, really, that extends to any profession.

I'll respond to this the same way I responded to it in the other thread. I think that anyone - male or female - needs to be prepared to make accomodations for their perfect image of parenting if they have a career and choose to have children. Whether that accomodation is having a spouse who will stay home with the child, or willingness to hire a nanny or have your kid in daycare is a personal distinction. In no way to I place this entirely on the backs of mothers, or of mothers in medicine. I think it is a choice of anyone with a career who has a child. It's just not feasible to "have it all". Once you decide to go to medical school, law school, get an MBA -- whatever -- and then decide to have kids, you have to look at it as a whole, and decide where you're willing to make concessions. If the concession ends up being that you only work part time (therefore not advancing as far as others, making less money, whatever), so be it. If the concession ends up being that you have your child in the care of another person more than you'd like, so be it. In this case the concession is that she may not be able to pump as much milk as she would be able to in an ideal situation.

Life is full of choices.

[Rapunzel]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Well, I must ammend my statement that the hostility was only directed at some woman in the news!

EDIT: I posted this at the same time as Genevieve. I haven't read her post above yet.

[PrincessFiona]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Well, I must ammend my statement that the hostility was only directed at some woman in the news!

EDIT: I posted this at the same time as Genevieve. I haven't read her post above yet.

There always was the tinge of disdain and vitriol

[Rapunzel]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

If she is a doctor first then I think Princess Fiona's husband (and, some of the other husbands here) that perhaps a woman (particularly a woman who wants children) should not be in medicine at all. And, really, that extends to any profession.

I'll respond to this the same way I responded to it in the other thread. I think that anyone - male or female - needs to be prepared to make accomodations for their perfect image of parenting if they have a career and choose to have children. Whether that accomodation is having a spouse who will stay home with the child, or willingness to hire a nanny or have your kid in daycare is a personal distinction. In no way to I place this entirely on the backs of mothers, or of mothers in medicine. I think it is a choice of anyone with a career who has a child. It's just not feasible to "have it all". Once you decide to go to medical school, law school, get an MBA -- whatever -- and then decide to have kids, you have to look at it as a whole, and decide where you're willing to make concessions. If the concession ends up being that you only work part time (therefore not advancing as far as others, making less money, whatever), so be it. If the concession ends up being that you have your child in the care of another person more than you'd like, so be it. In this case the concession is that she may not be able to pump as much milk as she would be able to in an ideal situation.

Life is full of choices.

OK, I can definitely agree with that.

Perhaps then, what I am desiring is more compassion in general - in medicine and workplaces as a whole - towards mothers and fathers in this particular instance?

[Rapunzel]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Well, I must ammend my statement that the hostility was only directed at some woman in the news!

EDIT: I posted this at the same time as Genevieve. I haven't read her post above yet.

There always was the tinge of disdain and vitriol

Hey now! Weren't you banned from posting in this thread until next week or something?

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

I think I was mostly surprised at some of the word choices used. And, there is a seeming open hostility towards the woman in question (total stranger). I haven't seen hostility towards posters here. None at all, really. I guess I was surprised at the hostility expressed towards this particular woman....

Ohhhh. I'm embarrassed! I misunderstood. Sorry! I'm sure you're right.

That's what I get for trying to multi-task...iMSN while working = bad idea!

[houseelf]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Davita wrote:

She CAN pump, during her BREAKS (as in plural, not just one) which is no different than what 1,000s of other breastfeeding moms have to do every day that they go to work.

My position assumes that this nine hour test day includes a lunch break and two fifteen minute breaks. I'm extrapolating from my own experience taking the bar. During break time, people are free to do whatever they want: run, eat, smoke weed, shop, BF, whatever.

I guess that I do have surprisingly strong feelings about this topic because I did work and BF with both kids, during my lunch breaks. As a consequence, my kids would want to nurse all night long because they preferred "the real deal" to the bottle. It was hard, no doubt about it. I had milk supply issues, but this method was doable over an EXTENDED period of time. I had to plan ahead to build up my milk supply over my maternity leave and on the weekends, but that was a small concession, IMHO.

As a working parent I tried to save my "parenting concessions" from my employer for when I really needed it: sick kids, wanting to leave early or come in late for a school event, having to bring a kid to work, etc.

For the record, I had a special concession to sit by the bathroom because I was 5 months pregnant. Nonetheless, I didn't ask for extra time because of my frequent bathroom excursions.

Kelly

[SuzySunshine]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Wow - look what I missed.

A few things that jump out at me...

- if she has already failed the test the likelihood (IMO) of her getting into MGH is VERY low, they are a very hard program to get into in 90% of their programs. And if she thinks the media exposure is going to elevate her application, yes - it probably will right to the top of the denied pile. Never mind - I just realized this is Step 2 - not the scores they look at, you just have to pass but how do you FAIL step 2? You can complete ERAS without step 2 but you have to send them those scores before you can start. You must pass Step 2 before you can start residency.

- In our program no one can moonlight but the foreign fellows can't even write prescriptions so they're limited in some other things they can do - not a discrimination issue just medical rules - is that unfair to them? Probably.

- I got the impression from the article that she was asking for additional breaks, not additions to the existing breaks - maybe I read it wrong.

- I know several woman who have had to give up breastfeeding for their career and not just in medicine because they just couldn't keep up with both. The job allowed time and allowed rooms for breastfeeding or pumping but the person just couldn't keep up with it all. I can't see a resident in DH's program breastfeeding once she's returned to the full schedule, are you going to stop an operation every two hours to do so? I really don't think so.

[SuzySunshine]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

Her request was denied.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20872181/from/RS.4/

[houseelf]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

This article alleged 45 minutes worth of breaks...Is there a half hour lunch and fifteen minute break? How does this work? Anyone? Three fifteen minute breaks during nine hours makes me more sympathetic to her cause although I still think that the ruling was correct. She can take this test at another time. I think it is funny that I'm supporting the "no" side of this question because normally I'm all for more family friendly policies, when they are needed.

Kelly

[PrincessFiona]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

This article alleged 45 minutes worth of breaks...Is there a half hour lunch and fifteen minute break? How does this work? Anyone? Three fifteen minute breaks during nine hours makes me more sympathetic to her cause ....

I think that is what I had said in my first post The first article also alleged few breaks.

But I refuse to step back into this one. She can take it at another time.

[madeintaiwan]

Re: breast feeding, test taking medical mom

This article alleged 45 minutes worth of breaks...Is there a half hour lunch and fifteen minute break? How does this work? Anyone? Three fifteen minute breaks during nine hours makes me more sympathetic to her cause although I still think that the ruling was correct. She can take this test at another time. I think it is funny that I'm supporting the "no" side of this question because normally I'm all for more family friendly policies, when they are needed.

Kelly

Kelly according to DH you can take the breaks whenever you want. If you skip the 15 minute tutorial in the begining automatically bump your 45 minutes up to 60 minutes. Any time you finish a test block early that time is your time. You are responsible for keeping track of your breaks. You can take breaks as you want or you can power through and finish the test early. DH took a small break to eat lunch and powered through to finish the test early.