Sarah Palin?

Re: Sarah Palin?

Especially considering his mother was pregnant with him when she was 17, by a man who later left and went on to get a few other women pregnant and then was never a part of Obama's life!

I think Obama's response to all of this has been classy.

Kris

Which he pointed out today in a press conference. He's also extended his "hands off" to say that he expects his supporters to behave that way as well. Obviously some (many ) won't, but at least he's not just saying "I have no control over what my supporters do."

[Phoebe]

Re: Sarah Palin?

I've come to believe that most women are talking to justify their own choice to themselves.

I'll just give a big old AMEN to that statement.

Ditto. This whole thing has me bent out-of-shape. And I can't blame it on pregnancy hormones. Maybe I can chalk it up to being a single parent for the last two weeks. Just kidding. Seriously. You guys here all have your viewpoints, but are actually sane. Another message board where I lurk has many people appalled that Sarah Palin for being a working mom and blaming her daughter's pregnancy on the fact that her mother wasn't at home with her. Now if a girl is 17, I think she can have sex whether your parent is a working mom or a stay-at-home-mom. Maybe I am clueless, but I am not catching on to other female's perspectives. I try to come from a place of supporting others. EVery election has some kind of scandal.

[houseelf]

Re: Sarah Palin?

Phoebe wrote:

This whole thing has me bent out-of-shape.

I'm as fired up for Palin as I was for Clinton. I *honestly* can not believe some of the conversations that this country is having. This is embarrassing. Most of our allies have had strong female Prime Ministers, Chancellors, Queens, and Grand Pohbahs a couple DECADES ago. Meanwhile, this country is still debating about the suitability of females in top leadership positions. Blech.

Kelly

Re: Sarah Palin?

I don't have anything bad to say about her family or her choices about working vs. staying home, etc. I choose to stay home, but if I had a cause that meant a great deal to me, I'm sure I could find a satisfactory way to get my kids raised well. Some people make big sacrifices for a good cause (ahem, dawkters & their families), and not everyone will understand that. Maybe Bristol's pregnancy had something to do with her mom not being as available and maybe it didn't, but I guarantee there are plenty of great SAHMs who wonder how in the world their kids could have made the poor choices they did. I don't think that candidates' own moral choices are off-limits to the public, but I don't see how Bristol's rough start into adulthood precludes Palin from being VP.

As Lily said, though, I have other reasons to question whether I want her stepping up to the Presidency if something happened to McCain. And none of those reasons have anything to do with her being a woman, working outside the home, having a pregnant teenage daughter, or even wearing red shoes. I have a feeling I'd really like & respect her if I met her personally. That doesn't necessarily mean I hope she'll be the next VP.

I have to say, I am growing weary of this stage of the election, where every aspect of people's personal lives gets picked apart to the point where no one quite remembers how these candidates VOTED on issues that are relevant to their public office. I'm sure that people's private lives affect their choices (like maybe Obama's upbringing makes him more anxious to help single working moms), so I'm trying to be patient with what seems like useless gossip.

[McPants]

Re: Sarah Palin?

Speaking as a foreigner, I couldn't care less about Sarah Palin's personal life. She could have twelve husbands, fifteen wives and questionable relations to polar bears and it wouldn't bother me.

What bothers me is her policies and in particular the following (taken from Wikipedia, but detailed external sources appear to be provided):

In 2002, while running for lieutenant governor, Palin called herself as "pro-life as any candidate can be." She opposes abortion for rape and incest victims, supporting it only in cases where the mother's life is in danger, and suggested that requiring parental consent for abortions be added to Alaska's constitution.

This means that she's even more extreme than McCain with regards to the abortion issue. To me it is incomprehensible how she can call herself a feminist, while still advocating the removal of a woman's right to decide about matters regarding her own body, however as mentioned above, I am foreign, so my perspectives are likely to be vastly different from those of many Americans. In my opinion, this thread shouldn't turn into a pro-choice/pro-life debate. I'm sure you guys have had plenty of those in the past.

Her obvious lack of experience with international politics is marginally worrying too, I suppose. Still, in case she became president, she'd really have to work hard in order to succeed in worsening U.S. international relations anyway.

[poky]

Re: Sarah Palin?

To me it is incomprehensible how she can call herself a feminist, while still advocating the removal of a woman's right to decide about matters regarding her own body, however as mentioned above, I am foreign, so my perspectives are likely to be vastly different from those of many Americans.

Not different at all from *this* American's. Maybe I'm secretly a foreigner, myself, despite never having lived anywhere else. :P

[Momo]

Re: Sarah Palin?

Her daughter's pregnancy, her DH's DUI (when he was 22 ), and the "abuse of power" investigation, all seems to lead many to believe that she was NOT vetted thoroughly/ properly.
The McCain camps says they were well aware of all of this. They have dispatched a 12 member team to AK to "handle" the investigation. Some are starting to say that all of this makes McCain appear as if he made a poor/hasty judgment. Which in turn may give voters pause when it comes to assessing his decisions/judgments.

There are just a few months left till the big day! The convention is now being effected by this, they aren't on message because they are in damage control. It just seems messy to me :huh:

[Sheherezade]

Re: Sarah Palin?

Theoretical question for all the Palin supporters on this board:

If Palin's views on abortion were unknown or unclear, would you still support her in the role of VP on the Republican ticket? Would you be as excited? I'm wondering how much the pro-life issue plays in to this selection and in to the votes expected. If the pro-life issue was off the table (say she was pro-choice), what aspects of her profile would most excite you? Anti-corruption? That she is a working mom? Her commitment to drilling in Alaska?

I'm interested. I was surprised to read this morning that she didn't support her MIL in the election to succeed her as mayor. I wasn't surprised that she didn't support her - but that she didn't support her *because she was pro-choice*. I didn't even know that was an issue in a small town mayoral election. It has never come up in our small town elections!

Re: Sarah Palin?

I'm interested. I was surprised to read this morning that she didn't support her MIL in the election to succeed her as mayor. I wasn't surprised that she didn't support her - but that she didn't support her *because she was pro-choice*. I didn't even know that was an issue in a small town mayoral election. It has never come up in our small town elections!

I wonder how the convention will go between the delays due to Gustav and Palin. Maybe McCain should have announced his choice sooner to let all this blow over.

re: foreign relations, any interactions with her neighbors, Canada and Russia?

Re: Sarah Palin?

Theoretical question for all the Palin supporters on this board:

If Palin's views on abortion were unknown or unclear, would you still support her in the role of VP on the Republican ticket? Would you be as excited? I'm wondering how much the pro-life issue plays in to this selection and in to the votes expected. If the pro-life issue was off the table (say she was pro-choice), what aspects of her profile would most excite you? Anti-corruption? That she is a working mom? Her commitment to drilling in Alaska?

I'm so glad you asked about this, b/c I was wondering the same thing. I'm pro-life, but I have trouble agreeing with Palin on some other issues (like the environment) - although I respect the anti-corruption history.

Here's the deal, though - I read that McCain voted yes on allowing partial-birth abortions (ETA - I went back & double-checked... I think there was a typo & he actually voted against partial birth abortions. Anyone know for sure?) A lot of his other views on abortion seem muddled. :huh: And then I read all this nice rhetoric from Obama about his commitment to respecting both sides and bringing people together to reduce the number of abortions, and I want so badly to believe it's not just words. Ontheissues.org summarized a bill that Obama apparently introduced, showing how providing birth control to a certain group of women would decrease the numbers of unwanted pregnancies. I know this doesn't help Catholics... but it makes me think Obama might follow through.

BTW - I wanted to say again how nice it is to have a place where everyone can talk without being eaten alive.

ETA - the links:
http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Barac ... ortion.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/John_ ... ortion.htm

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Sarah Palin?

Theoretical question for all the Palin supporters on this board:

If Palin's views on abortion were unknown or unclear, would you still support her in the role of VP on the Republican ticket? Would you be as excited? I'm wondering how much the pro-life issue plays in to this selection and in to the votes expected. If the pro-life issue was off the table (say she was pro-choice), what aspects of her profile would most excite you? Anti-corruption? That she is a working mom? Her commitment to drilling in Alaska?

I would suggest that the excitement about her is, at its core, really an excitement about the fact that McCain showed some deference and respect to the social conservatives in the party. Choosing Palin wasn't about winning over the ticked-off Clintonite supporters. They may hope to garner a few of those votes, but that wasn't the basis for the selection.

There was a real, palpable fear that in all his maverickness, he was going to put up Lieberman as his VP. That would have been perceived by many as a slap in the face, given Lieberman is socially quite liberal on many issues, including abortion. Personally, I would have voted for a McCain/Lieberman ticket because (1) I disagree with almost everything Obama advocates and (2) my top issue is the war, not abortion. Moreover, even if my top issue was abortion, I'm sure I would have voted McCain/Lieberman anyway, because for all Lieberman's liberalness on the issue, he's still not as liberal as Obama. If I voted based on this issue, it would have been selecting the ticket of least potential damage.

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Sarah Palin?

To me it is incomprehensible how she can call herself a feminist, while still advocating the removal of a woman's right to decide about matters regarding her own body, however as mentioned above, I am foreign, so my perspectives are likely to be vastly different from those of many Americans. In my opinion, this thread shouldn't turn into a pro-choice/pro-life debate. I'm sure you guys have had plenty of those in the past.

If this would help at all (you commented on the incomprehensibility of it all)--I likewise have no desire to get into a pro-life/pro-choice debate. I am providing this only to suggest that the opposition may have a position that is not presumptively "anti-woman" (that is, one might still disagree with this position but recognize that it is not inherently born of anti-feminism):

Some people argue that the legally recognized (as of 1973) superiority of a woman's right to privacy (upon which Roe v. Wade and its progeny were decided) rests on the wrong assumption that a fetus is not a life equivalent to the life of the mother. People who believe this don't see themselves as "anti-woman"--rather, they see the law as disproportionately "pro-woman" (that is, the law improperly affords women a right to which she is not entitled) at the expense of the lives of fetuses--including the lives of female fetuses.

I suppose the argument could be simplistically summarized as this: currently, US law provides that a woman has a right to privacy against state interference (albeit on a sliding scale) with her pregnancy. That is where the right to procure an abortion comes from. In doing so, the law puts the this privacy right of the woman ABOVE the right of life to the fetus. Oppoents argue that there is no authority in the law to allow this superprioritization, other than under Roe v. Wade--a comparatively recent Supreme Court case (1973), which based its ruling not on an actual enumerated Constitutional right, but on an expansion of a previous Supreme Court case finding (judicially constructing) a right to privacy from the language of the Constitution, in a case related to pre-conception birth control. And, in fact, historically, these Roe opponents have a point, but only if the life of a fetus can be equated to the life of someone already born: in Anglo-American jurisprudence the right to life--for anyone--has always trumped the non-life (inferior) rights of another. However, Roe made clear by implication that the fetus is not a person entitled to independent protection of its life in the face of the mother's desire to assert her right to privacy. The state has an insufficient interest to protect by regulating abortion, as compared to the mother's interest in maintaining her privacy. And, if you don't believe that a fetus is a life, this makes perfectly good sense.

Anti-abortion advocates will never win this argument unless they can first establish that the fetus has a right to life. If a fetus is not equivalent to the life of a born person, why on earth would you tell a woman that she must endure a medical condition that she can cure? This also explains why the pro-choice folks must fight to uphold Roe--without the reasoning of Roe, there is no legal basis for the expansion of the right to privacy as to birth control (pre-conception birth control) established in Griswold v. Connecticut. Without a Constitutional right to prevent the state from interfering with one's body, the issue of whether a fetus is a life would not need to be revisited because the state could find an alternate reason for abortion regulation that could trump the woman's non-Constitutionally based interest in being able to obtain an abortion.

All this being said, I would argue that if you believe that a fetus is a life equivalent to the life of the mother, being pro-life does not necessarily make you anti-feminist or anti-woman. It makes you an advocate for correcting the law to be consistent with the legal and moral prioritization of life over non-life interests, even if that means that a woman would have to endure an unwanted pregnancy. Of course, if your pro-life stance is due not to a conviction about when life begins but because you simply believe, for example, that women should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, then you most definitely would be anti-woman. You're just being a jerk and trying to take away a woman's control over her own body for no interest other than misogeny or so forth.

But assuming that all pro-life people are anti-woman is roughly equivalent to assuming that all pro-choice people are pro-woman. Some men are pro-choice because they want to be able to have sex with whomever they like with the reassurance that the resutling "problem" can always be fixed! They aren't interested so much in protecting a woman's right to privacy as they are in protecting their own "right" to screw without recourse. That is, a woman's right to privacy is really their right to escape responsibility.

[DCJenn]

Re: Sarah Palin?

Here's my question of the day:

(and here's my take on the 'other' pressing issues:

1) pregnant daughter- well, no different than one entire branch of my husband's family tree where the average age at parenthood is under 18

2) 'flip-flopping' on the bridge to nowhere and the earmarks- that's politics, baby- she was for them when it mattered to the constiuents she represented, and against them when it mattered to the (larger) constituency, i.e. the state as a whole. Besides, I'd much prefer people change their minds and learn. Kind of smacks of stupidity if you spend your entire life thinking "one way".

3) husband's DWI 20 years ago- my brother had a DWI 20 years ago, too. He's still an upstanding guy, married for 13 years with 2 kids. He inhaled 20 years ago, too.

end/)

The thing that I want to know, and I mean I REALLY want to know is "has she EVER left the country?" I don't care if it's just skiing in Canada or a beach vacation in Cancun. No, it's not a priority to have left the country, lots of people have never left the country. But, if McCain drops dead on January 21, I would prefer to have a Commander in Chief who may have actually been to a military base over seas? Perhaps have an experience trying to order off a menu in a country where she didn't speak the language? A smattering of knowledge of other cultures, even if it's ONLY that in England you drive on the other side of the street.

What say you, masses? Anyone heard anything about her setting foot out of Alaska on a regular basis?

Jenn

[Vanquisher]

Re: Sarah Palin?

Here's my question of the day:

(and here's my take on the 'other' pressing issues:

1) pregnant daughter- well, no different than one entire branch of my husband's family tree where the average age at parenthood is under 18

2) 'flip-flopping' on the bridge to nowhere and the earmarks- that's politics, baby- she was for them when it mattered to the constiuents she represented, and against them when it mattered to the (larger) constituency, i.e. the state as a whole. Besides, I'd much prefer people change their minds and learn. Kind of smacks of stupidity if you spend your entire life thinking "one way".

3) husband's DWI 20 years ago- my brother had a DWI 20 years ago, too. He's still an upstanding guy, married for 13 years with 2 kids. He inhaled 20 years ago, too.

end/)

The thing that I want to know, and I mean I REALLY want to know is "has she EVER left the country?" I don't care if it's just skiing in Canada or a beach vacation in Cancun. No, it's not a priority to have left the country, lots of people have never left the country. But, if McCain drops dead on January 21, I would prefer to have a Commander in Chief who may have actually been to a military base over seas? Perhaps have an experience trying to order off a menu in a country where she didn't speak the language? A smattering of knowledge of other cultures, even if it's ONLY that in England you drive on the other side of the street.

What say you, masses? Anyone heard anything about her setting foot out of Alaska on a regular basis?

Jenn

Oh, please, you know as well as I do that if she was a frequent flyer to Prague and Timbuktu alike, you aren't going for that ticket on your ballot. Unless there is something we need to have a chat about, huh, Jenn?

[spotty_dog]

Re: Sarah Palin?

Well, I heard back from my mom (the Alaska resident) and she`s appalled. I hope she doesn`t mind my quoting her here.

Personally, I think Sarah Palin as VP candidate is ridiculous. I was
dismayed when she was elected governor, and have had nothing that she has
accomplished while in that office change my low opinion of her. There are
many things I have a problem w/ including giving everyone $1200 next month
due to the windfall from the tax increase to the oil companies, yet some of
the "basics" that I feel are important to a community have been slashed
(like education!)
Not to mention that in my opinion, she simply isn't very intelligent. Lots
of "hoopla", "charisma" yadda yadda, but not much substance that I've seen.

I guess in addition to trying to take sex education out of Alaskan schools, she`s been trying to put creationism in the curriculum.

(My mom is fairly conservative in many ways, my parents were Bush supporters all along, but she does lean socially liberal on many issues I guess.)