walking in another's shoes

[houseelf]

Kris and I have had this ongoing conversation for about two years about she thinks my career is so important and how I think she is so lucky to be a SAHM.

Now that I'm working a bare bones schedule, my delusions are shattered. My house is actually dirtier than before, my kid sometimes still eats cheerios for dinner, and we're not engaged in hourly craft projects. Of course, my first couple of weeks on this new workweek, I was like June Cleaver on crystal meth: story hour at the library, multiple play dates, clean house, pot roasts, ironed shirts, etc. Then I became exhausted and surrendered to the reality of motherhood.

In a similar vein, Kris called me this Spring during her part-time teaching stint complaining about schedule conflicts, bureaucracy, politics in the work place, and absolutely clueless employers. She has now seen the light and determined that working while parenting is not all that it is cracked up to be. Of course, I responded, "What did you think, that all workers are engaged in meaningful projects with brilliant, forward thinking individuals which are never redundant or tedious?" Sure. Let me show you my company car, the Ferrari parked out front.

I'm writing about this because I believe that all of us cling to our delusions about the path we did not choose. It is incredibly revealing to see a glimmer of the other side and realize that sometimes things just are the way that they are. I know that this theme comes up often as we all grapple with our choices. In sum, none of us is really dealing with the reality of the alternate choice, just the world as we want to see it to serve our own needs. This has been a huge wake up call for me.

Kelly

[Auspicious]

Good post.

[PrincessFiona]

alright

OK..I've been formulating a response to this for a few days, but I wanted to wait until Kelly got back into town before answering....this is a really interesting topic...I'm surprised to see that it got such little response!

I have to say that I think that it should be possible for women to find a balance between their personal/home responsiblities and career aspirations. The whole sahm movement is really a very new thing historically. We did have a stint of it in the 50s, but for the most part women have worked in the fields, in factories, etc and have had extended family around to help support them. It really is unprecedented that women are expected to stay at home for the sake of the children with little support from public policy (ie you lose retirement benefits for the years that you stay at home, etc), or extended family. We are a very mobile society now and women who choose to be at home are often fairly isolated.

I chose to be at home for a variety of reasons and I still stand by that decision and continue to stay at home despite my frustrations. I recognize that there are frustrations/problems with any professional choice...my time in the lab was no different in that regard.

That being said, I think that there is a huge gap between the sahm and the working mom. I find that most sahm friends that I have are adamently against the idea of putting a child in daycare, even preschool...and I've repeatedly heard comments like "why even bother to have children if you aren't going to take care of them yourself". At the same time I have experienced sahm's tearing each other apart as well...ie going to a playgroup and listening to the "she's put on a few pounds, huh?...I can't believe that she dresses that child in polyester...." etc, etc... From the other side of things, I notice that many working moms look down their noses at sahm's as if motherhood chose them instead of the other way around. I've heard plenty of comments by working moms living in nice homes, driving nice cars, taking two vacations a year who say "I wish that I could stay at home...we just can't afford it". As if sahm's don't sacrifice those things in order to stay at home. I think many women could afford to stay at home if they gave up some of the extras..it is a matter of their personal choice and they should stand by that.

I have also heard discussions by working moms about how the concerns/worries of sahm's are frivolous, how theri children are overprotected and not independent enough....how they can't help but chuckle at the things that we do to stimulate their minds 8O

We do all cling to our delusions, Kelly, but as women, we are totally unsupportive of each other. We also cling desperately to validate the choices that we make that we feel so emotionally charged about.

I think that it is possible to be a good mom and work outside of the home..I do not find daycare to be some modern form of child abuse or consider parents who use any form of childcare to be substandard parents. I have been on all sides of the issues...sahm, part-time working mom full-time working mom and back again. I am aware that there are frustrations with each job. When I was in the lab full-time, I felt guilty, preoccupied with what i had to do at work and not as much with the kids, and was exhausted. My house was always a mess. As a sahm, I still feel guilty for not doing 'enough' for my children, I feel lonely a lot of the time and underappreciated...and newsflash..my house is still a mess

We as women should be more supportive of each other and our individual personalities and choices. I feel like as moms we've kind of divided ourselves into the working mom/sahm camps and that we fight against each other.

I'm all for helping women/mothers to find a happy balance for themselves instead of forcing them into pre-determined roles and chastising if they don't fit neatly into a little package. If we were more supportive of each other and our choices, perhaps we could all find a happier balance in the choices that we make.

Those are just my thoughts...feel free to agree, disagree....lets discuss it.

kris

[Auspicious]

Also a good post!

[PrincessFiona]

hey

Hey...no wimpin' out here How do you feel?

kris

[Auspicious]

Re: hey

Hey...no wimpin' out here How do you feel?

kris

Me?? I don't have kids--I thought people with kids got really annoyed when people without kids start talking about the best way to raise a child. 8)

I totally agree with the part about women needing to be more supportive of one another's choices, though. (I'm sure men face parallel issues, but I'm less familiar with those.) It's so easy to fall into the trap of "I think my choices are right, but I'm not sure, so I need for (A) all the alternative choices to be wrong, and (B) others to make the same choice as me before I'll feel really comfortable with it." And I know I've done that at times and you see people do it was all kinds of life choices. It's hard to accept that there's more than one right answer, and that they all just have their different pros and cons.

[PrincessFiona]

kids

I don't have kids--I thought people with kids got really annoyed when people without kids start talking about the best way to raise a child.

Are you kidding...that's when we know the most about raising them

You're right, Julie..It's hard to look at the fact that there are other sides to an issue...especially when we have made a huge emotional investment in our own decisions...and maybe that is at the heart of this issue? BTW...I've also done this at times too...I think we're all guilty to one degree or another 8)

kris

Re: alright

OK..I've been formulating a response to this for a few days, but I wanted to wait until Kelly got back into town before answering....this is a really interesting topic...I'm surprised to see that it got such little response!

That's funny, Kris. I was doing the same thing!

I think that maybe this is one of those...the grass is greener sorts of things.

I have also been on several sides of this: working full-time, not at all, and working part time. I have to say that I have been the happiest when I am working part time and I think that me being happy with my career/family balance is a positive thing for my child. I also think that what works for one person doesn't work for another -- some people are happier working and some not working at all.

I did a lot of babysitting from junior high through college and along that route have seen many, many different families with different work arrangements. I don't think that one scenario sticks out as being best for kids or producing the happiest, most well-adjusted children. I can say that parents that seemed unhappy (with themselves, with their careers, each other, whatever) did not have the happiest kids.

I started out working full-time and ultimately took what was a fabulous opportunity to be laid-off so that I could have more time at home. I realized that with Eric's career working full time was not working for me. I felt like I was rushed and that I wasn't measuring up to my standards as a mom, wife, or employee. Maybe if my job hadn't been so crazy it would have been easier. It also would have been easier if Eric had been able to be more involved with the childcare.

I got varied responses from friends and family members (not many of them invited responses, of course ). I think the one question that bothered me the most was -- is it really worth it to work when you have to PAY for daycare? Umm....hello...yeah....it was. I paid about $800/month for very good quality infant daycare and took home significantly more than that, not to mention providing excellent healthcare benefits to my family and contributing (and having the company contribute) to my retirement savings. The thing that REALLY bothered me about this is that I have NEVER heard someone ask a man this question. I can certainly appreciate that depending on how much one makes and how many children one has that childcare expenses can begin to outweigh income. But seriously, how many men get asked that question?

I had decided to take 6 months off from working and then look for part time work. Bad timing. That was about one month after 9/11. So, since then I have built my own consulting business which works very well for me most of the time. I rarely work more than 25 hours per week when I am working and have a lot of flexibility in my schedule. I miss having the dependable income of a "regular" job and the interaction with co-workers but overall it's been great. And it gives me good time to spend on my career as well as time to spend with Bryn. She is in preschool at least 2 days a week regardless of my work schedule so increasing her preschool schedule by a day when needed pretty much goes un-noticed by her. I have noticed this time/money trade-off with working and not-working. When I am working, I have less time to do things with Bryn but have the money for paid activities. When I'm not, I have more time but not a lot of money to spend. So, after working, I apply some of my income to parent-tot music classes, swim lessons, memberships (zoo, children's museum, etc) so that we have fun things to do together.

So, I don't know if I really "count" as a SAHM mom when I'm not working. But if I didn't have her in preschool 2 days a week I think I would go crazy. Kelly -- my house is clean but not cleaner or dirtier than when I worked (anal rententive husband??), my child never does craft projects (I suck at that -- she likes to paint and color, though), and we tend to eat pretty well because I love to cook. I love the thought of June Cleaver on speed!

I do feel like I am in sort of weird career limbo sometimes. I think my working mom friends wonder what I'm doing when I'm not working . And, for some reason, my SAHM friends feel sorry for me when I am working. (I don't feel sorry for me, I'm happy to have the work!)

I do wish that women were more supportive of each other on this issue. And I also wish that there was more societal support for mom's in general. I don't want to get all "it takes a village"-y but I wish it were easier to organize babysitting co-ops, that there was more respect for different choices, better childcare options for people.....many things.

Good topic, Kelly!

[Auspicious]

Is it possible the SAHM/Employed Mom debate will end when the line just blurs so much that it becomes moot? It seems like you hear a lot of people say they aren't sure whether they're a SAHM or not--they work part time or they work from home or they've moved in and out of the workforce througout their kids' childhoods . . .

Once upon a time people chose a career or a company when they were 21 and would stay straight through to retirement, and now that's almost unheard of. I think we'll eventually get to the point where it's not like you choose in the beginning to be either a SAHM or do paid work and then stick with that decision, but most people will kind of do both in some way at some point.

[SueC]

This is such a good topic! I've kind of been chewing on this for a little while. I think Kris is totally right that women need to be more supportive of each other. I think we can all say (for the most part anyway) that we all have our childrens/families best interests at heart. If that means working full-time for one woman and staying home for another--so be it! I think we as women all need to stick together! I'm amazed at how passionate and heated a discussion between women can become when the issue of working vs. staying at home comes up. I stay at home, but I've always worked in some capacity so I don't even know which category to place myself. I think if I had the choice I would be a full-time stay at home mom, though that option hasn't presented itself yet! Then again, I do like the challenges of my business, so who knows! I don't mean to be so wishy-washy about the subject, I just think there is no right answer. It does make me wonder when women judge each other so harshly about the choices they have made, are they feeling a little defensive and insecure about their own choices. Otherwise, why would they care?

[mommax3]

Well, this is my second try at a reply since Nathan just deleted the first one.

I have been chewing on this one for a while also. I made the decision to be a SAHM long before I had children. In the religious climate I grew up in, it was presented as the obvious, only choice. I remember once asking a woman I admired, who had worked for several years before she had kids, if she ever got bored. She laughed and said I should visit her house someday and see if I thought it was boring -- she was, of course, homeschooling as well. I didn't think she had answered the question -- and now I know -- for me, at least, staying home is often EXTREMELY boring. I have always liked children and have consistently chosen employment that has involved working with children. However, it is much easier when they are someone else's children!

When my oldest was born, DH was finishing his second year of med school and I had been teaching middle school music in a small town 45 minutes (by interstate) outside of Indianapolis. Unlike some of us, my salary was nothing to get excited about, and the cost of daycare (the quality I would find acceptable) would have cut my salary almost in half. Factor in the difficulties of where said daycare would be located (in the town where I worked -- make the commute with baby, in the snow, at 6 a.m. and 4 p.m. ; or in Indianapolis -- DH would drop off and then be unavailable for the rest of the day and I would be roughly an hour away if anything happened) and you can see that the decision I made to stay home was not really that hard. The adjustment to staying home, however, was VERY difficult! I really enjoy being around people, and Luke, while challenging, was not as exciting as being around hundreds of adolescents every day.

I ended up working as a nanny for two physicians who had 4 kids during DH's fourth year. I saw the dynamics of their family up close, and all the guilt that the mom felt. She only worked part-time, but she had everything organized like a machine, and worked like a dog to get it that way. Then, one kid would puke and the whole thing would be in shambles. Her younger kids never had regular naptimes because they were always in the car for school pick-up for the carpool. It would have been much easier to just pick up her kids, but I had to pick up and take home all the other kids in the carpool as well, because having carpool was the only way she could make the mornings work. There was a carpool for preschool, and one for the elementary school as well. I could go on and on -- I loved the family, by the way, and still keep in touch, but there was no way I wanted that life as my own -- and no way I could have had it, since I could never have afforded to pay someone as much as they paid me. So that whole experience solidified my decision.

I wish now that I had a career that was a little more flexible and paid better. I have always had an interest in counselling and wish I would have pursued it, but music paid my way through college (I had a voice scholarship) and I really do enjoy teaching it. It is just such a low status, low paying occupation, with no real power. (I guess it prepared me for motherhood! ) The administration tells you what you teach, how many kids you will have in your class, (I had ~70 kids in my 7th grade choirs each year) and what your disciplinary options are. I was not good at taking orders from people who had no idea what they were talking about when I first started teaching at 21 -- I am sure I would be much worse at it now!

I do, however, feel that it is imperative for all moms, whether they stay at home or not, to have some time to call their own. I put my oldest in preschool 2 days a week (9 to 2) when he was 2 and I have never looked back. I would have lost my mind during residency if I hadn't done that. The younger two started going when they were a year old -- I would have sent Nathan earlier if I could have! I have gotten to the point where I almost can't think clearly when they are all around unless I ignore them completely -- a dangerous proposition! 8O A few months ago, my best friend (also a SAHM) called me and was livid because her husband (who owns/runs a hardware store) would not make solid plans for his day off, thus preventing her from getting any time "off". (She would plan around him.) She said that she felt like he didn't respect her time. I said "Why should he -- you don't respect it either!" I told her to quit taking leftovers and plan some time off for herself that didn't depend on him. She took my advice (her husband was completely supportive, BTW) and is much happier. I think there is often a lot of resentment in marriages with SAH moms because of this. Women want someone to give them permission to take time for themselves for some reason. Not this woman!

For me and for my kids, I am pretty happy with the decision we made. My husband has always said "whatever you want to do" on this one, and while I would occasionally like him to bow down and kiss my feet for staying home with his kids, mostly I think he is pretty cool for being that way. I know if I wanted to go back to work, he would help me make it happen. I am just not Type A enough to want to deal with the inevitable stress it would bring. There is NO WAY he will ever be able to leave work for a sick child -- well, that would be pretty hard for me to do as a teacher, as well --- MORE STRESS --- no thank you. My oldest has always been a handful. He is extremely intelligent and extremely strong-willed, with a very high activity level as well. He is not hyper when he is interested in something, but if he gets bored, watch out. I have had to be very involved in his education and I shudder to think what I would be dealing with now if he had been in the kind of daycare I could have afforded way back when.

I guess, in conclusion, that I feel I have a very tough job right now that would only become tougher if I added a job to the mix. I don't see how my husband would be able to pick up any more of the load at home than he already does (and he does a LOT) and I think my kids are better off for spending their younger years primarily with me, and with their preschool teachers and friends.

The happiest I have been since I had kids was when I was an assistant worship director at my old church in San Antonio. I worked between 15 and 20 hours a week, had quite a bit of autonomy, but someone to back me up when a parent was disagreeable, and I was able to work with children AND adults! I also had a desk and computer in an office that I shared with my boss. The office part of that description may sound run of the mill to you guys, but trust me, to a teacher it was nirvana!

I am planning to go back to work when my youngest is in school and we are part of a community that we CHOSE and hopefully will have more of a support system. I am still playing around with what I want to do, but it will probably be in the education realm because I want to be able to have the same "hours" as my kids and know what is going on where they are going to school.

If my husband was not a physician and we were living in a community where we had established a strong support system and we only had one or two children, I am sure I would be working now -- probably even if he was a physician and the other things were in place. I think moms who work and are making it work for themselves and their families are great.

I believe that there are women on both sides of this one who are trying to prove something to themselves and others instead of looking at what they really want for themselves and their kids. The physician I nannied for wanted to prove she could do it all and was worried what her colleagues would think if she cut back her hours (she has since done just that). The moms who don't use preschool/mom's day out on some kind of principle are proving something to someone as well -- no one can tell me that they wouldn't like a break. I think there is a learning curve to all of this and that women should just ride it and make decisions that work for their families based on what they learn.

I apologize for how long and rambling this became......my kids are bouncing around here and I keep getting interrupted and losing my train of thought completely.

Off on another tangent -- speaking of losing my train of thought -- can you believe that the phone rang yesterday and I picked it up and said "three"? Thank goodness it was my husband. I think I was subconsciously counting the rings that had gone by before I got to the phone, but still. I was appalled. If I am that distracted now, can you imagine what would happen if I was working outside the home? 8O I think it was the third kid that did me in.


Sally

Sue -- I like your new avatar!
I understand what you mean about being wishy-washy about -- if I didn't have to work, would I? I mean, we can get by without me working. But my income pays for all those unexpected extras -- like boards. I wonder what I will do when Eric is done with residency and earning an attending salary. I think I will still work in some capacity but will feel like I have more options -- like I don't have to look for higher paying work and can take lower paying work without worrying about it.

Sally -- I thought your post was interesting. No rambling detected here. I hope I didn't come across too strong on my comments about the cost of childcare vs income. I was thinking of a teacher's salary being one of those cases where high quality daycare would start to overshadow the income you bring in. And with all that driving you would have to do....geesh.

I appreciate everyone's thoughtful and thought provoking responses. I am too tired right now to add my own, but wanted to say something before I go to sleep.

[SueC]

I know for me, seeing the lifestyle my mom had made staying home an easy decision for me. She worked full-time as a director of a nursing program--I never wanted that life for myself. Working all day and then rushing home to cook dinner, spend time with the kids, and do all the other household duties did not appeal to me. And also knowing my husband would not be able to pick up any of the slack would have made it that much worse.
I think Sally made a very good point about taking time for yourself. I was that person for the last several years that resented my husband because he never offered to give me time for myself--I don't know why I didn't just make it happen for myself instead! I've just started sending my girls to mother's day out and it is fantastic! I wish I would have done it sooner! I think that is a great "take home message".

[Rapunzel]

This is an interesting thread. I have to first respond to Kris's curiosity as to why there were few responses: I don't normally read the "education and career" section of the website because most people (including women) do not see full-time motherhood as a career. In fact I felt that this portion of the website was primarily for those making money off of their jobs rather than for those of us who have made a career out of mostly intangibles. But, now I have read it and I will respond.

I grew up as one of those "golden students" in public school. I was always ahead of my class and my teachers took great interest in me. I was encouraged to "do" something with myself and I kicked around a lot of possibilities as a young woman - professional musician (years of violin in symphony orchestras), architect (an area which I have enjoyed immensely since I was 10), and lawyer were at the top of the list. My parents told me it was my life and it was up to me as to what I decided to do with it.

I got to college and found that I enjoyed my classes and could pretty much choose any career option I desired in life. But, nothing ever felt (emotionally speaking) "right" - as in I have a tremendous drive and didn't feel that "click" of my drive kicking in with any of the many possible avenues available for me to pursue.

I met and married my husband and got pregnant with my first child. It was then that my drive kicked in. I knew that the area of the world I could make the most impact was in my own motherhood. I see all of the problems in society and the world at large (for instance look at the thread I started on "Tears of the Sun") and I realize that in my own hands every day I hold a portion of the future of human society. My children are far too precious and important to hand to another person whose values, background, opinions, life outlook, etc. I may know very little about.

So, for me I have debated within my mind the possibility of pursuing other talents and goals while my children are home with me and every single time I am brought back to the purpose of my life and what will make the most impact in the world. The bottom line is simple: my children. Sure, I could be a lawyer or an architect, and I might, just might do so well in either of those careers that I could be one of the handful of people whose achievements leave a legacy long after they die. It's a gamble I'll take someday - but first I am far too busy with marking my own imprint on humanity that will last for generations to come.

I do take time for my own talents and activities - it is important that every individual take the time to develop themselves and allow their talents to thrive. But, there are some talents that will simply have to take the backseat for my more important career - motherhood. But, I do believe developing one's mind, body, and soul in a variety of areas is a vital activity and I try to do this regularly (although I am at this present moment falling down in my physical development ).

So, I've looked at the "other side of the fence" and I most certainly do not think it is greener. In fact, I don't think it is even green! It is an entirely different way of looking at the world and one that is less important at the moment.

I now have friends (and a relative) who have spent years as nannies. I am absolutely horrified by the neglect the parents of these children heap upon their own precious children. Even those well-meaning parents who attempt to spend a smidgen of their time away from their non-parenting careers with their children come up very short of the basics. It is a sad and telling fact that as parenthood and most especially motherhood become less important in our society that childhood depression and crime increase while the age of sexual experimentation decreases. These are facts that are usually glossed over in order for people to ignore even the possibility that they made the wrong choice. The simple fact is that when you are a parent your responsibility is to do what is best for your children. You have, at that point, chosen a life for yourself and another human being which is to either build up society or contribute to its degradation. I recognized this seven years ago and living in the area I live in now (highly child-unfriendly) has completely reinforced this to me.

I know that my recognition of a right and wrong in this matter is not a popular one and it is most certainly in the minority - as full-time mothers become the decided minority in American society. But, I don't think being in the majority automatically lends crediblity or correctness to a philosophy.

So, my decision to be a full-time mother is based on philosophical, social, and spiritual reasons. I would have taken this route in life no matter what my husband's career path - although he has been incredibly supportive of me and has tailored his own career around my decisions. Few husbands seem to do this - particularly in the medical field - which is to base their career decisions on what is best for their wife and children. Instead I see quite a few selfish medical people taking the route of doing what is best for their career and expecting their family to make accomodations no matter what. My husband, knowing how important I felt that my children have a full-time mother (and agreeing with me) accepted an Air Force scholarship during medical school to support me in my efforts. He focused his energy on deciding which medical specialty would be best for his wife and children rather than selfishly thinking of himself first and then expecting us to just do whatever we could to survive. My husband purposefully chose a residency program whose director makes it a point to ensure the happiness of the residents' families. He (my husband) has gone to great lengths to make sure we (his wife and kids) have what is best for us. I recognize his uniqueness in this and I will always be impressed by him.

So, now I have made the decision to educate my children myself. I've found it is far from an impossible task - like motherhood, difficult but doable. My husband (who spent a portion of his own childhood educated at home) has very thoroughly spoken to me about this decision and has decided to support me in this endeavor. I am no different from any other mother who needs time away from her children to work on herself as an individual. Everyone needs personal time - that is a given. However, I have, for philosophical, social, and spiritual reasons decided that handing my children over to a public school for 35 hours a weeks is not going to cut it. My children deserve a much better education than that and they don't need a mother who is eager to "get rid" of them every morning and dreads figuring out "what to do with them" during the summer when they have school vacation. I have my bad days and weeks like every other person - I see them as speed bumps on the road, however, and I don't turn molehills into mountains.

Like I said, my views are not popular - but popularity does not equate with correctness. I am proud of my career choice and, despite the normal ups-and-downs of my career, I am happy in it. If I was not willing to participate in my career fully I would not have made the decision to pursue it. Luckily, I have a wonderful husband who has made the similarly unpopular decision to not just give verbal support but to ACT on that support by putting my career first above his career (and thus his children's needs above his own ambitions) and these actions have made all the difference.